Hi, I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. It really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote:
> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high > school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools around > here, are Mac-based. > > On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> > wrote: > Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between the > National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader companies, > they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for putting blind > people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that hot potato was more > trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. > > I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen reader > company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley Systems got > shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while individuals might > like Macs, business and academia will continue to insist on Windows machines > for a long time to come. Macs are mostly irrelevant to them. > > Bryan > > On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: > > > I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at > > hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers > > universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why > > Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the > > technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it > > brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a > > mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without > > sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be > > forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their > > economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax > > dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what > > it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market > > is because they have contracted with some state agencies and > > government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. > > I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 > > to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest > > majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby > > boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for > > the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind > > kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them > > Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could > > probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of > > us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis > > increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, > > Anchorage, Alaska. > > > > > > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: > > > > I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they > > have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why > > I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and > > secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but > > FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed > > market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating > > that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics > > ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if > > ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough > > of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out > > by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big > > deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or > > anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like > > a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very > > robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies > > are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our > > needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people > > were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with > > macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things > > might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better > > stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing > > correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. > > > > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: > > > >> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time > >> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has > >> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted > >> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for > >> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr > >> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had > >> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies > >> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and > >> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other > >> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the > >> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the > >> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started > >> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille > >> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to > >> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal > >> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an > >> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best > >> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, > >> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. > >> > >> > >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: > >> > >> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a > >> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of > >> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and > >> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not > >> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make > >> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW > >> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it > >> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I > >> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a > >> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far > >> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I > >> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. > >> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A > >> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that > >> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too > >> dependent on anybody, agencies included. > >> > >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: > >> > >>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, > >>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other > >>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, > >>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different > >>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for > >>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in > >>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any > >>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we > >>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our > >>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the > >>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Mark: > >>> > >>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their > >>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind > >>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was > >>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I > >>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had > >>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of > >>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the > >>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done > >>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I > >>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. > >>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that > >>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government > >>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do > >>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with > >>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority > >>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I > >>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some > >>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. > >>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people > >>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as > >>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, > >>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like > >>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was > >>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. > >>> > >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: > >>> > >>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was > >>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised > >>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from > >>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with > >>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience > >>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, > >>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course > >>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of > >>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab > >>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and > >>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then > >>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me > >>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the > >>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was > >>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ > >>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've > >>>> always been good with tech. > >>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along > >>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at > >>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the > >>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which > >>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the > >>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of > >>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my > >>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not > >>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my > >>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, > >>>> but think about what that > >>>> implies-- > >>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by > >>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of > >>>> high- > >>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to > >>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to > >>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for > >>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until > >>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, > >>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility > >>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the > >>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon > >>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's > >>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel > >>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any > >>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as > >>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am > >>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might > >>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's > >>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a > >>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter > >>>> > >>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 > >>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com > >>>> My home page: > >>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to > >>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >>>> . > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > >>>> . > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >>> . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > >>> . > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >>> . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > >>> . > >>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >> . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > >> . > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > >> . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > >> . > >> > >> > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en > > . > > > > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "MacVisionaries" group. > > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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