That's very interesting! I had never heard MS was interested in developing a screen reader. I thought their position was always it was better left to third party vendors. Of course back then MS was also under pressure for forcing people to take Internet Explorer as part of the OS. I wonder how good the screen reader would have been or what their long term commitment to it would have been. Twenty years ago Ibm developed a screen reader first for Dos then later for Os2 only to let them die later on. On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Michael Thurman wrote:
> every school system that I have ever had any dealings with uses macintosh > computers in at least some of their labs and teaching. > On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. It >> really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. >> On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote: >> >>> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high >>> school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools around >>> here, are Mac-based. >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> >>> wrote: >>> Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between the >>> National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader companies, >>> they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for putting blind >>> people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that hot potato was more >>> trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. >>> >>> I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen >>> reader company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley >>> Systems got shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while >>> individuals might like Macs, business and academia will continue to insist >>> on Windows machines for a long time to come. Macs are mostly irrelevant to >>> them. >>> >>> Bryan >>> >>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >>> > I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>> > hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>> > universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>> > Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>> > technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>> > brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>> > mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>> > sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>> > forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>> > economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>> > dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>> > it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>> > is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>> > government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>> > I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>> > to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>> > majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>> > boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>> > the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>> > kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>> > Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>> > probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>> > us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>> > increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>> > Anchorage, Alaska. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>> > >>> > I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>> > have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>> > I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>> > secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>> > FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>> > market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>> > that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>> > ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>> > ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>> > of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>> > by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>> > deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>> > anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>> > a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>> > robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>> > are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>> > needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>> > were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>> > macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>> > might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>> > stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>> > correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>> > >>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> > >>> >> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>> >> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>> >> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>> >> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>> >> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>> >> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>> >> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>> >> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and >>> >> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>> >> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>> >> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>> >> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>> >> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>> >> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>> >> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>> >> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>> >> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>> >> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>> >> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>> >> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>> >> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>> >> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>> >> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>> >> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW >>> >> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it >>> >> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I >>> >> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a >>> >> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far >>> >> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I >>> >> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. >>> >> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A >>> >> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that >>> >> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too >>> >> dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>> >> >>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>> >>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>> >>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>> >>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different >>> >>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for >>> >>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in >>> >>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any >>> >>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we >>> >>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>> >>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the >>> >>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mark: >>> >>> >>> >>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>> >>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>> >>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>> >>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>> >>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>> >>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>> >>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the >>> >>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done >>> >>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I >>> >>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. >>> >>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that >>> >>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government >>> >>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do >>> >>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with >>> >>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority >>> >>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I >>> >>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some >>> >>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. >>> >>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people >>> >>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as >>> >>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, >>> >>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like >>> >>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was >>> >>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>> >>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>> >>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>> >>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>> >>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience >>> >>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, >>> >>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >>> >>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of >>> >>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab >>> >>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and >>> >>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then >>> >>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me >>> >>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the >>> >>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was >>> >>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ >>> >>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've >>> >>>> always been good with tech. >>> >>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>> >>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>> >>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>> >>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>> >>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>> >>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of >>> >>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my >>> >>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not >>> >>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my >>> >>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, >>> >>>> but think about what that >>> >>>> implies-- >>> >>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>> >>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>> >>>> high- >>> >>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>> >>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>> >>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>> >>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>> >>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>> >>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>> >>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >>> >>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon >>> >>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's >>> >>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel >>> >>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any >>> >>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as >>> >>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am >>> >>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might >>> >>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's >>> >>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a >>> >>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>> >>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>> >>>> My home page: >>> >>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> >>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>> >>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> >>>> . >>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>> >>>> . >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> >>> To post to this 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unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> >> . >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>> >> . >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> >> . >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>> >> . >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> > . 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