every school system that I have ever had any dealings with uses macintosh computers in at least some of their labs and teaching. On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi, > > I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. It > really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. > On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote: > >> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high >> school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools around >> here, are Mac-based. >> >> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> >> wrote: >> Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between the >> National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader companies, >> they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for putting blind >> people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that hot potato was more >> trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. >> >> I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen reader >> company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley Systems got >> shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while individuals might >> like Macs, business and academia will continue to insist on Windows machines >> for a long time to come. Macs are mostly irrelevant to them. >> >> Bryan >> >> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >> >> > I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >> > hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >> > universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >> > Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >> > technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >> > brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >> > mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >> > sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >> > forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >> > economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >> > dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >> > it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >> > is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >> > government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >> > I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >> > to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >> > majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >> > boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >> > the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >> > kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >> > Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >> > probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >> > us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >> > increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >> > Anchorage, Alaska. >> > >> > >> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >> > >> > I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >> > have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >> > I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >> > secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >> > FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >> > market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >> > that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >> > ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >> > ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >> > of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >> > by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >> > deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >> > anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >> > a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >> > robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >> > are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >> > needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >> > were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >> > macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >> > might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >> > stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >> > correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >> > >> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >> > >> >> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >> >> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >> >> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >> >> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >> >> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >> >> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >> >> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >> >> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and >> >> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >> >> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >> >> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >> >> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >> >> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >> >> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >> >> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >> >> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >> >> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >> >> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >> >> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >> >> >> >> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >> >> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >> >> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >> >> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >> >> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >> >> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW >> >> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it >> >> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I >> >> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a >> >> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far >> >> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I >> >> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. >> >> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A >> >> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that >> >> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too >> >> dependent on anybody, agencies included. >> >> >> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >> >> >> >>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >> >>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >> >>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >> >>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different >> >>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for >> >>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in >> >>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any >> >>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we >> >>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >> >>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the >> >>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Mark: >> >>> >> >>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >> >>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >> >>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >> >>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >> >>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >> >>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >> >>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the >> >>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done >> >>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I >> >>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. >> >>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that >> >>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government >> >>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do >> >>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with >> >>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority >> >>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I >> >>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some >> >>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. >> >>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people >> >>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as >> >>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, >> >>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like >> >>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was >> >>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >> >>> >> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >> >>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >> >>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >> >>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >> >>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience >> >>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, >> >>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >> >>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of >> >>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab >> >>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and >> >>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then >> >>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me >> >>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the >> >>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was >> >>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ >> >>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've >> >>>> always been good with tech. >> >>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >> >>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >> >>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >> >>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >> >>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >> >>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of >> >>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my >> >>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not >> >>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my >> >>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, >> >>>> but think about what that >> >>>> implies-- >> >>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >> >>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >> >>>> high- >> >>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >> >>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >> >>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >> >>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >> >>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >> >>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >> >>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >> >>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon >> >>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's >> >>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel >> >>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any >> >>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as >> >>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am >> >>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might >> >>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's >> >>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a >> >>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >> >>>> >> >>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >> >>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >> >>>> My home page: >> >>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >> >>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> >>>> . >> >>>> For more options, visit this group at >> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >> >>>> . >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >> >>> To post to this group, send email to 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