that is why I can't stand the NFB but then again a rich attourney runs it, or used to, so what do you expect. he has disposable income On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote:
> Hmm, The school system here in Arizona has always dealt with Apple. When I > was little, we had Apple 2E and 2GS computers, and when I got to high school, > we had the mac SE and other models. Now that my own children are in school, > they're learning on iMacs. Apple has always been involved with k-12 education > here. It's actually rather nice since I can help the kids with their computer > classes on the Mac. > As far as the libraries around town go, they're all PC based, especially in > the adaptive technology rooms where they keep the braille writers and > scanners and such. > As far as Microsoft trying to make a screen reader is concerned, once again, > the NFB shoots blind people without state help in the foot yet again. I would > always would rather not pay extra for adaptive tech, and indeed it's why I > got rid of all but one of the PC's in the house. > The more I see of the iPhone, the more excited I get over it, and the more I > actually consider switching to AT&T's evil empire. > Anyway, just my two cents. > > Friendly, > Chris > > On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. It >> really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. >> On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote: >> >>> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high >>> school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools around >>> here, are Mac-based. >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> >>> wrote: >>> Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between the >>> National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader companies, >>> they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for putting blind >>> people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that hot potato was more >>> trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. >>> >>> I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen >>> reader company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley >>> Systems got shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while >>> individuals might like Macs, business and academia will continue to insist >>> on Windows machines for a long time to come. Macs are mostly irrelevant to >>> them. >>> >>> Bryan >>> >>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >>> > I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>> > hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>> > universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>> > Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>> > technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>> > brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>> > mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>> > sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>> > forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>> > economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>> > dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>> > it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>> > is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>> > government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>> > I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>> > to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>> > majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>> > boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>> > the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>> > kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>> > Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>> > probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>> > us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>> > increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>> > Anchorage, Alaska. >>> > >>> > >>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>> > >>> > I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>> > have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>> > I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>> > secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>> > FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>> > market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>> > that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>> > ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>> > ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>> > of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>> > by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>> > deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>> > anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>> > a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>> > robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>> > are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>> > needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>> > were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>> > macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>> > might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>> > stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>> > correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>> > >>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> > >>> >> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>> >> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>> >> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>> >> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>> >> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>> >> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>> >> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>> >> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and >>> >> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>> >> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>> >> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>> >> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>> >> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>> >> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>> >> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>> >> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>> >> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>> >> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>> >> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>> >> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>> >> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>> >> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>> >> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>> >> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW >>> >> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it >>> >> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I >>> >> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a >>> >> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far >>> >> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I >>> >> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. >>> >> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A >>> >> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that >>> >> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too >>> >> dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>> >> >>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>> >>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>> >>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>> >>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different >>> >>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for >>> >>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in >>> >>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any >>> >>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we >>> >>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>> >>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the >>> >>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Mark: >>> >>> >>> >>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>> >>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>> >>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>> >>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>> >>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>> >>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>> >>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the >>> >>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done >>> >>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I >>> >>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. >>> >>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that >>> >>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government >>> >>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do >>> >>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with >>> >>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority >>> >>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I >>> >>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some >>> >>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. >>> >>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people >>> >>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as >>> >>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, >>> >>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like >>> >>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was >>> >>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>> >>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>> >>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>> >>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>> >>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience >>> >>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, >>> >>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >>> >>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of >>> >>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab >>> >>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and >>> >>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then >>> >>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me >>> >>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the >>> >>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was >>> >>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ >>> >>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've >>> >>>> always been good with tech. >>> >>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>> >>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>> >>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>> >>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>> >>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>> >>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of >>> >>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my >>> >>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not >>> >>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my >>> >>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, >>> >>>> but think about what that >>> >>>> implies-- >>> >>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>> >>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>> >>>> high- >>> >>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>> >>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>> >>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>> >>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>> >>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>> >>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>> >>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >>> >>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon >>> >>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's >>> >>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel >>> >>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any >>> >>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as >>> >>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am >>> >>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might >>> >>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's >>> >>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a >>> >>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>> >>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>> >>>> My home page: >>> >>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> >>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>> >>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> >>>> . >>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>> >>>> . >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> >>> To post to this 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