Hi Jenny, I'm glad I've been listening to this thread. >From my experience on this, Here in the UK, though there is audio description >to TV shows via new digital TV's, there still isn't a spoken user interface >to allow access to various menus, same on DVD players, recorders, etc. I've >not yet come across a single audio described DVD in my time.
Support for blind and visually impaired people in most parts of the UK is absolutely shocking. as an example, in education, I'm here in Wales (a lottery win would see me leaving here as soon as possible), throughout my education life, both visually impaired and blind, I've been let down and lied to, given useless equipment which constantly failed, the wrong software, extremely poor braille training, etc. the only good thing that came from it was mobility training through RNIB instead of social services rehab department. There was a point where mobility aids were free but now they're not, so I have to pay about £300 per year on canes and tips due to high usage and certain occasions where thugs in our area attack me destroying the cane for "fun", so replacement canes are kept by. If you apply for funding, it's virtually non existent, not only that but the rulings given have no sense nor structure. so if you need adaptive equipment, not a chance, it's sell what you own or get into debt, that's my experience on that matter. Why is it when you walk into a store and ask for help, you get a useless person who hasn't a clue of how to assist you? I get this all the time... I may as well appear as a muppet on the Muppet Show.. You ask to be guided and they go without you, they say " it's over there", don't describe the items, etc. So what's the bloomin use of them in the first place. Then of course the ultimate insult. to be blind and wanting to work for companies here is a joke. Though I'm highly qualified and have all the right requirements, because of being blind, there are 3 main areas that stop me from working for a firm. 1: disability discrimination by the interviewer or company, 2: Health and Safety regulations acts, 3: employer insurance costs. I've been in the IT game for myself for a while and don't mind it, but my main skills are as a cabinet maker, having been trained by my grandfather who was a master cabinet maker / carpenter. so I took on his work after his retirement, so I'm the last in the line of the family in the trades and am keeping that alive. I'm fine working for myself, but if I were to work for a joinery company, they couldn't take me on for the amount of HSE red tape nonsense. This stops us experienced folk from doing our jobs and putting us out of work and I'm sick of it. I do some work with a company as a product demonstrator / endorser of their products as I use them every day in the workshop and it's ridiculous how all this nonsense gets in the way. Anyway, I also agree that here in the UK, if you're in a wheel chair, deaf, etc you receive more support, blind and visually impaired people don't matter and we're being ripped off with rubbish services, etc. Education is a total mess where mainstream education should be the best option and is instead hampered by people who cannot cater for a blind or visually impaired person's needs and LEGAL RIGHTS. anyway, enough from me on that matter and I agree with your statements. This world needs to open it's eyes to how we have to survice in this world and that we should be treeted with the utmost respect and care, given the same rights as the rest of the world and granted the support we need to be able to achieve what our SIGHTED, able bodied equals should and are able to do. lew On 29 Apr 2012, at 01:40, Jenny Keller wrote: > Well, In my humble opinion, equality isn't there, so that, isn't fair > treatment. the Americans with Disabilities Act should include the blind or > visually \impaired just as vigorously as it does every other disability in > this country. > > there aren't any services, that I know of at this point, that the visually > impaired community, or blind community receive that anyone else would > consider unfair. > > Believe me, I've been almost totally blind all my life, and I can say from > experience, that the simplest things that I've needed have had to be > justified by education or work, which I can work because of other physical > disabilities, and for education, I wasn't given the option of being taught > braille in the beginning because I had some sight. So I can say out of > experience, there isn't anything that I own, that I didn't beg, borrow, or > barter, or finance within an inch of my disability, to get. > > to be very frank, there are a lot of things, such as that bar code reader > they have on special on financing, which I can't afford, that my husband and > I desperately need,, that I'll never be able to have. Only because I can't > justify it to the government because we're not working. > > We both have physical limitations to prevent us from doing so, but because of > that, we don't have the opportunity for the simplest and most basic of things > to help us with independent cooking and identification skills. > > so I don't have a problem downloading anything that is descriptive from that > site because I'm tired of being left out because I'm not able to work and > can't afford the opportunities that I should get for things that others can. > If I lived in the UK, things would be a lot different, and if I could get on > a plane and become a citizen to the United Kingdom, I certainly would in, > well, a New York minute. > > to make this apple related, the only reason I have this machine is because I > had to put up with my Dad's crap and constant criticism for him to buy it for > me. > > If it weren't for that, we wouldn't even be talking. > > Jenny > On Apr 28, 2012, at 7:06 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Keep in mind, fair doesn't always mean equal. I'm sure if we looked hard >> enough, we can find some services offered exclusively to those who are >> visually impaired and or blind. >> >> Ricardo Walker >> rica...@appletothecore.info >> Twitter:@apple2thecore >> www.appletothecore.info >> >> On Apr 28, 2012, at 6:11 PM, Jenny Keller <jlperd...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> In my opinion, accessible movies, TV shows, appliances, etc, should fall >>> under the ADA. >>> >>> Not to be politically incorrect here, but if people in wheelchairs can get >>> them for free and most places are made to be accessible for them, and the >>> deaf get closed captioning for almost every TV show and eventually DVD, and >>> TTY phones and free relay services, then why isn't it mandatory that we get >>> the same consideration. >>> >>> The fact is, we don't, and in my opinion, if we have to go to other sources >>> to get it because this wonderful country of ours, who makes other >>> disabilities have accessible products and services as mandatory, then we >>> have do do it until we get our fair shake. >>> >>> It's fairness to all, or it shouldn't be for any. >>> >>> Go red, white, and blue:( >>> >>> Jenny >>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 1:37 PM, Christine Grassman wrote: >>> >>>> Arguably, anything beyond the things required for daily living is a >>>> luxury. Plenty of people do not have computers or TV's. I personally have >>>> found a greater appreciation for movies and television shows when they are >>>> described, and it is exceedingly frustrating when one cannot watch a >>>> foreign film or dialogue-poor show. The level of audio description in the >>>> UK versus what is available in the U.S. is astounding -- in fact, the bulk >>>> of the audio description is done in Great Britain. I remember not going to >>>> action movies with peers when I was younger, or not being invited, because >>>> no one wanted to describe them to me. I remember people becoming annoyed >>>> when my mother quietly described what was going on in a movie. >>>> Even important information on news broadcasts is flashed across screens. >>>> If it is possible to accommodate the print-disabled and visually impaired >>>> in one country, it is possible in another. We should not have to pick and >>>> choose among "luxuries" -- Shopping for appliances is another nightmare; >>>> I am tired of having to get someone to go over touch screens and controls >>>> with me so that I can memorize, mark controls, or make charts so that I >>>> can use something for which I paid full price. Even companies which >>>> advertise that they have "accessible manuals" either do not actually >>>> provide them or only provide them in shorter, slimmed-down versions. >>>> If something is accessible to people who want it and can afford it, it >>>> should be accessible to all. Not only is their a fairness component, but a >>>> social component: culturally, experientially, we are better integrated >>>> into the social fabric of our societies when we have independent, >>>> real-world access to the things our peers take for granted. >>>> Christine >>>> show >>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Eugenia Firth wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi guys. >>>>> I love audio description as much as any blind person could. Before you >>>>> couldn't get them, I bought several movies on those tapes, movies I >>>>> wanted to watch again. However, and maybe I'm showing my age here, but I >>>>> consider audio description to be a luxury for us. I watched movies and TV >>>>> just fine before we got it. >>>>> >>>>> Computer accessibility, however, including the Internet's accessibility, >>>>> has become an increasingly frustrating necessity. I don't have statistics >>>>> to back up my opinion, but I think we delude ourselves if we think we are >>>>> a money-making proposition. Poor Apple has been braver than everybody >>>>> else by jumping into the quicksand of accessibility. If the good folks in >>>>> Cupertino are sorry they they made the plunge, they are being smart >>>>> enough to be quiet about it. I think they will be better off than >>>>> everyone else in that regard eventually, especially when the feds get >>>>> involved in evaluating accessibility the education arena. At least Apple >>>>> will have no trouble, unlike others, proving that the iPad, etc. is >>>>> accessible to blind and other disabled students. >>>>> >>>>> A blind friend of mine was asking me about these new vending machines >>>>> that touch screens. He was asking if there was an iPhone app to control >>>>> those things because he's concerned that he won't even able to get a cold >>>>> drink without extra help otherwise. As it is, at least at his work, he >>>>> can count the buttons. I have another blind friend whose electric oven >>>>> went out, and she a terrible time finding an accessible one. My microwave >>>>> is still partially inaccessible since my husband has yet to put labels >>>>> onto that mostly flat screen. When I go to Louisville this summer, I can >>>>> just about guarantee that I can't independently watch TV, unless you guys >>>>> can tell me of an iPhone app that will for sure work with the hotel's TV. >>>>> >>>>> I could go on and on giving examples. Without getting political, both >>>>> blindness organizations have written resolutions for positive and/or >>>>> negative motivators for some of these folks that are busy making our >>>>> lives more and ore inaccessible. We lost the battle of the accessibility >>>>> of curbing in our U.S. cities for blind folks, making our mobility more >>>>> difficult. We can't afford to lose the computer accessibility thing. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Gigi >>>>> >>>>> Eugenia Firth >>>>> gigifi...@sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Lewis Alexander wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> not getting it just yet, figuring out finances, etc so should have it >>>>>> end of may. snowed under at the mo with a machine restoration. a vintage >>>>>> industrial machine I'm completely rebuilding ready for use. so today's >>>>>> been spray work and drying. tomorow's the same. >>>>>> >>>>>> then after that it's assembly work. >>>>>> >>>>>> lew >>>>>> >>>>>> On 28 Apr 2012, at 13:50, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Lew, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> congrats on your iPad. they really are cool devices. My husband has >>>>>>> one, and I thought long and hard about getting one too. But eventually >>>>>>> I decided that since I didn't need the larger screen, that the iPhone >>>>>>> could do everything I needed, so it didn't make sense to duplicate >>>>>>> devices. I confess, though, I'm envious. Every once in a while I look >>>>>>> at my husband's iPad and get a sudden craving for coolaide. lol >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Donna >>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 8:44 AM, Lewis Alexander wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nice one donna, I fully agree. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the iPad is a product which can truly change the lives of blind users >>>>>>>> throughout the world. I'm in the process of buying an iPad as it's >>>>>>>> needed for work both in the workshop and on site as a rep for a >>>>>>>> company, so the online catalogue needs to be available and accessible >>>>>>>> to me all the time, the iPad for me feels absolutely amazing, after >>>>>>>> road testing the new model, I've fallen in love with it. I don't need >>>>>>>> a wife, just an iPad lol >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> lew >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 28 Apr 2012, at 13:39, Donna Goodin wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Christine, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm perplexed. How do you see the push to have iPads in classrooms >>>>>>>>> as something that leaves the blind/VI student out? If anything, I >>>>>>>>> see that as something that better enables us to participate, thanks >>>>>>>>> to the fact that Apple has made the iPad a fully accessible device. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Donna >>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 8:36 AM, Christine Grassman wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> With all due respect, Scott, laws which disparately impact certain >>>>>>>>>> groups or classes of people have been flouted through civil >>>>>>>>>> disobedience since the introduction of legal systems, e.g., civil >>>>>>>>>> rights, disability rights, employment rights, etc. The United States >>>>>>>>>> might not exist were it not for disobeying laws. >>>>>>>>>> I am an attorney, and it continues to amaze me how slowly the U.S. >>>>>>>>>> is moving to accommodate disability, and how snail-paced the >>>>>>>>>> societal shift in attitudes toward us has been. and it seems that >>>>>>>>>> whenever a company like Apple makes great strides in accommodating >>>>>>>>>> blindness off the shelf, plenty of other technologies come along and >>>>>>>>>> do not bother to incorporate us into their equation. So many >>>>>>>>>> educational apps, for example, are not accessible, though they could >>>>>>>>>> be, and given the push now to have iPads in classrooms, once again >>>>>>>>>> blind, visually impaired, and otherwise print-disabled students will >>>>>>>>>> be left out. Apple moves us two steps forward, and "progress" (for >>>>>>>>>> others) moves us three steps back. I should be able to turn on a >>>>>>>>>> television, flip a switch, or turn on a transmitter, and get >>>>>>>>>> descriptions. I should be able to access books on the Nook or the >>>>>>>>>> Kindle, not just iBooks. I cannot express, and I am sure others here >>>>>>>>>> agree, the happiness I feel when a new release or best-selling >>>>>>>>>> publication is available on iBooks. >>>>>>>>>> (Incidentally, if a book is available on iBooks and on >>>>>>>>>> bookshare.org, I purchase the book. Yet, I have lost quite a lot of >>>>>>>>>> money as a published author -- as soon as my book was published, I >>>>>>>>>> sent a copy to bookshare.org; it was more important to me to have it >>>>>>>>>> available at the same time to the blind and print-disabled. The >>>>>>>>>> Authors Guild apparently does not care about such access, despite >>>>>>>>>> the fact that they would actually get money from us.) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would happily go to the movies more and happily purchase >>>>>>>>>> audio-described movies through iTunes if they were available. Even >>>>>>>>>> movies which are released with audio description are not always sold >>>>>>>>>> through movie resellers -- goodness knows I have tried. To date, I >>>>>>>>>> have only located The Incredible Hulk, from 2008, which I purchased >>>>>>>>>> for my son. >>>>>>>>>> Even Apple could do more. It could strengthen its requirements for >>>>>>>>>> apps. It has provided developers with the means to make their apps >>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver accessible, and there are plenty of apps out there which >>>>>>>>>> could be so. Only apps that are visual by their very nature should >>>>>>>>>> be exempted. But, as usual, profit trumps people, despite the fact >>>>>>>>>> that the disabled community rewards those who remember us with our >>>>>>>>>> business. >>>>>>>>>> Frankly, I would prefer to purchase the audio-described movies and >>>>>>>>>> shows I download from the vault, so that I could watch them with >>>>>>>>>> sighted friends and family. I wish I could show a film to a class >>>>>>>>>> and not have to ask my para or a student to tell me what is going >>>>>>>>>> on. The entertainment industry gets plenty of my money. If they want >>>>>>>>>> more, they should remember that I deserve to be able to access their >>>>>>>>>> material independently. OK. Topic over. Those of you who wish to >>>>>>>>>> continue this off-list are welcome; I've appreciated your >>>>>>>>>> correspondence thus far. >>>>>>>>>> Christine >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 28, 2012, at 6:13 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am sure commenting on this only adds fuel to the fire, but I did >>>>>>>>>>> want to point out that as I recall the person that is responsible >>>>>>>>>>> for this movie vault thing also runs a legit company. I would find >>>>>>>>>>> it difficult to believe that he has not checked into this because >>>>>>>>>>> no one would want to put their business assets at risk. If there >>>>>>>>>>> truly is an investigation then prove it. I get pretty annoyed when >>>>>>>>>>> people claim something, but cannot or do not provide any reference >>>>>>>>>>> to back those claims. And for the record I do not condone pirating >>>>>>>>>>> of any kind and believe that regardless of accessibility issues >>>>>>>>>>> even blind people must follow the laws. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2012, at 10:51 PM, Christine Grassman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Naturally, if the moderator deems this discussion verboten, I will >>>>>>>>>>>> refrain further, but I would feel remiss not to point out the >>>>>>>>>>>> following for consideration: >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. As of several hours ago, there was nothing on the FBI's >>>>>>>>>>>> official web site regarding an investigation, nor were there any >>>>>>>>>>>> press releases or other comparable references to an investigation >>>>>>>>>>>> of the movie vault. A reference would be appreciated; mere >>>>>>>>>>>> speculation or rumor could be deemed libelous. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. The problem industries have with illegal file-sharing is loss >>>>>>>>>>>> of revenue. Since, at least in the United States, there is >>>>>>>>>>>> virtually no way to purchase audio-described movies or television >>>>>>>>>>>> shows, the industry is not being cheated of revenue. >>>>>>>>>>>> 3. The files are straight audio, with no ability, for example, to >>>>>>>>>>>> "watch" with sighted peers while having the benefit of the audio >>>>>>>>>>>> description. This is not at all remotely similar to downloading a >>>>>>>>>>>> film for the family to watch. That being said, the vast majority >>>>>>>>>>>> of the sighted community does this with impunity, even though many >>>>>>>>>>>> of the shows and movies they download can be seen for free when >>>>>>>>>>>> they are are shown on television. We, on the other hand, cannot >>>>>>>>>>>> even enjoy full access to these shows when they *are* on >>>>>>>>>>>> television. Either they are not audio-described at all, or it is >>>>>>>>>>>> not easy to turn on the secondary audio channel, or a particular >>>>>>>>>>>> station only carries foreign language broadcasts on the SAC rather >>>>>>>>>>>> than audio description. Comparing access to audio-described movies >>>>>>>>>>>> and shows in mp3 format to the type of file-sharing which goes on >>>>>>>>>>>> 24/7 on hundreds and thousands of sites is a stretch. >>>>>>>>>>>> 4. If the government and/or the involved industries wish to do >>>>>>>>>>>> something about the existence of resources like the movie vault, >>>>>>>>>>>> the former should mandate, and the latter should provide a market >>>>>>>>>>>> from which we can obtain these items. I have been able to watch a >>>>>>>>>>>> non-described movie with others after listening to an mp3 file and >>>>>>>>>>>> tell another blind person what is going on thanks to that previous >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. My two blind children have been able to enjoy fare >>>>>>>>>>>> which their peers enjoyed months or years ago. Until the >>>>>>>>>>>> entertainment industry levels the playing field, I will utilize >>>>>>>>>>>> resources like the movie vault with the same guiltless pleasure I >>>>>>>>>>>> take in bookshare.org (and, by the way, it is possible to download >>>>>>>>>>>> books from bookshare.org which are available commercially.) We >>>>>>>>>>>> cannot use the Kindle as others do. WE cannot use the Nook. We >>>>>>>>>>>> are severely limited in what we can access independently when it >>>>>>>>>>>> comes to entertainment, and we must even still fight for access to >>>>>>>>>>>> education at every level, despite technological advances. Holding >>>>>>>>>>>> us to the same standards as the vast majority of illegal >>>>>>>>>>>> file-sharers is legally, morally, and economically inequitable. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Christine >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
