====================================================================== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. ======================================================================
sorry,I put this on the wrong thread. Here it is again in the proper one: Lou will certainly provide his own answer, but let me say why I appreciate his insistence on being precise on this issue. Fascism was analyzed by Trotsky as a very particular tool used by the ruling class, with a particular mass base wielded in particular ways against particular working class dangers to their rule. It's not the same as more stable forms of capitalist dictatorship, nor of Bonapartism -- although a given state could pass from one to the other. So the point of the analytical exercise is to see what the ruling class is doing and why -- or what those to whom it has temporarily handed power are doing,and why and on that basis to develop a working class response. Use MIA's search function, select Trotsky from the drop-down list, and type bonapartism and then fascism On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jeff <meis...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > At 18:45 10-03-14 -0400, Andrew Pollack wrote:> > > > >This round was completely unnecessary. Marv made a simple mistake > > I don't think Marv made a mistake. I think he posed the wrong question: > whether we "defend" the government, whatever that exactly means. The > question is whether we support their self-determination, self rule, or as > Clay said "territorial integrity." Of course when we talk about the third > world and colonialism, Ukraine doesn't normally spring to mind. But in the > current situation (as well as during some history) that is exactly the > right analogy. It's disingenuous for Marv to shift the discussion of our > attitude to the government, as he knows damn well none of us defend > capitalist governments. That doesn't prevent us from defending the > interests of people living under those governments, including resistance to > foreign invasion. I absolutely agree with Clay's statement, below. > - Jeff > > >Ukraine territorial integrity is worth defending. Russian imperialist > >militarism and annexation is worth opposing. The Ukrainian masses who made > >this overthrow possible are my dog in this fight. > > > >If all you see in Ukraine is inter-imperialist rivalry, then you are blind > >to the class struggle and how the working class builds its power and > >consciousness through participation in the mass struggle. > > > > > -- he > >focused on our denunciation of Russia and extrapolated that incorrectly > >into our supposed support for the government of Ukrainian oligarch set B > >(following set A). There was no need for Louis to Democrat-bait him. > > > >Then Clay made his own false extrapolation. Clay, it's PRECISELY by > >refusing to support either imperialism that we can best promote the class > >struggle by workers on each side, and therefore in mutual support of each > >other. > > > > > >On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com> wrote: > > > >> ====================================================================== > >> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > >> ====================================================================== > >> > >> > >> On 3/10/14 3:18 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: > >> > >>> Yet the clear impression conveyed by Clay, Andy, yourself and a few > >>> others is that this government is somehow worth defending against the > >>> greater evil represented by Putin and the Russians. > >>> > >> > >> I suppose someone who has made the case for voting Democrat every 4 > >> years would be tempted to ascribe this motive to me. It is what Freud > >> called projection. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________ > >> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > >> Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/ > >> marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > >> > >________________________________________________ > >Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > >Set your options at: > > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/meisner%40xs4al > l.nl > > > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
