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What Charles asks fits with an additional point I was going to raise. Yes, we absolutely must update and expand the definition based on experience (and on theoretical maturation if it has happened). For instance, when the Arab Revolution broke out, a lot of people referred sloppily to the supposed "deep state" in Egypt without breaking it down, or after hearing someone else use it and just carelessly regurgitating it. And they didn't compare Egypt's supposed deep state with other dictatorships (i.e. the military ownership of a substantial part of the economy, its rivalry with the intelligence/police arm of the state, etc.). So capitalist dictatorships vary by place -- and by time. Mandel in "Trotsky as Alternative" very succinctly distinguishes the Bonapartist stage from fascism. There were a succession of Bonapartist regimes in Germany before the bourgeoisie called on Hitler to smash completely working-class organizations. And he points out that people today who talk about "creeping fascism" in fact are looking at "creeping Bonapartism," as the "strong state" (an autonomous executive) grows. And he points out that there's a life and death concreteness to the distinction in terms of who you organize against with what demands -- and even if you can organize above ground without getting shot. On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Charles Faulkner <lacena...@comcast.net>wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > andrew, just a question to you, louis or anyone because i agree with your > analysis and direction of your inquiries, but i am concerned about a too > limited definition, perhaps historically limited, of fascism given the > capacity of capital to incorporate lessons from nazi germany and the > relative success of neutralizing the working class during the same time. > do you agree we should have a more current/flexible definition of fascism > nearly 70 years after the fall of historical fascism? > much has happened since then. it seems we could do so without forgetting > trotsky, neumann, et al. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Pollack" <acpolla...@gmail.com> > To: "Charles Faulkner" <lacena...@comcast.net> > Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 4:33:47 PM > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fascism? > > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > sorry,I put this on the wrong thread. Here it is again in the proper one: > > Lou will certainly provide his own answer, but let me say why I appreciate > his insistence on being precise on this issue. > > Fascism was analyzed by Trotsky as a very particular tool used by the > ruling class, with a particular mass base wielded in particular ways > against particular working class dangers to their rule. It's not the same > as more stable forms of capitalist dictatorship, nor of Bonapartism -- > although a given state could pass from one to the other. > > So the point of the analytical exercise is to see what the ruling class is > doing and why -- or what those to whom it has temporarily handed power are > doing,and why and on that basis to develop a working class response. > > Use MIA's search function, select Trotsky from the drop-down list, and > type bonapartism and then fascism > > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jeff <meis...@xs4all.nl> wrote: > > > ====================================================================== > > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > ====================================================================== > > > > > > At 18:45 10-03-14 -0400, Andrew Pollack wrote:> > > > > > >This round was completely unnecessary. Marv made a simple mistake > > > > I don't think Marv made a mistake. I think he posed the wrong question: > > whether we "defend" the government, whatever that exactly means. The > > question is whether we support their self-determination, self rule, or as > > Clay said "territorial integrity." Of course when we talk about the third > > world and colonialism, Ukraine doesn't normally spring to mind. But in > the > > current situation (as well as during some history) that is exactly the > > right analogy. It's disingenuous for Marv to shift the discussion of our > > attitude to the government, as he knows damn well none of us defend > > capitalist governments. That doesn't prevent us from defending the > > interests of people living under those governments, including resistance > to > > foreign invasion. I absolutely agree with Clay's statement, below. > > - Jeff > > > > >Ukraine territorial integrity is worth defending. Russian imperialist > > >militarism and annexation is worth opposing. The Ukrainian masses who > made > > >this overthrow possible are my dog in this fight. > > > > > >If all you see in Ukraine is inter-imperialist rivalry, then you are > blind > > >to the class struggle and how the working class builds its power and > > >consciousness through participation in the mass struggle. > > > > > > > > > -- he > > >focused on our denunciation of Russia and extrapolated that incorrectly > > >into our supposed support for the government of Ukrainian oligarch set B > > >(following set A). There was no need for Louis to Democrat-bait him. > > > > > >Then Clay made his own false extrapolation. Clay, it's PRECISELY by > > >refusing to support either imperialism that we can best promote the > class > > >struggle by workers on each side, and therefore in mutual support of > each > > >other. > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 5:10 PM, Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com> wrote: > > > > > >> ====================================================================== > > >> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > >> ====================================================================== > > >> > > >> > > >> On 3/10/14 3:18 PM, Marv Gandall wrote: > > >> > > >>> Yet the clear impression conveyed by Clay, Andy, yourself and a few > > >>> others is that this government is somehow worth defending against the > > >>> greater evil represented by Putin and the Russians. > > >>> > > >> > > >> I suppose someone who has made the case for voting Democrat every 4 > > >> years would be tempted to ascribe this motive to me. It is what Freud > > >> called projection. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________________________ > > >> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > > >> Set your options at: > > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/ > > >> marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > > >> > > >________________________________________________ > > >Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > > >Set your options at: > > > > > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/meisner%40xs4al > > l.nl > > > > > > > ________________________________________________ > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > > Set your options at: > > > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/lacenaire%40comcast.net > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
