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S.Artesian wrote: > I think Marxists should be in favor of UNIVERSAL military service, yes, > conscription, for everyone-- gays, heteros, confused, whatever-- rather than > "volunteer" armies in bourgeois countries. I understand the logic of this comment but I'm not sure that I'm convinced by it. I think that to be as definitive as this, you'd need to demonstrate that conscript armies under capitalism had proved the undoing of the states that created them. I'm not certain that the evidence exists for that. The most obvious example of a huge conscript army going over to the revolution in big numbers is obviously the Czarist army in 1917. But that army was a relic of feudalism, down to its aristocratic officer class and its archaic (by early 20th century terms) structure etc. A decade in Vietnam certainly saw some breakdown in US military discipline but can we put that down to its conscript nature rather than its losing the war? I don't know, I'm not an expert on the history of the US military. It won't be identical here of course, but in New Zealand, where I live, the army is a small professional force that prides itself (with some justification unfortunately) in its skill, efficiency etc. It is overwhelmingly recruited at the lowest ranks from the working class and is disproportionately Maori, the indigenous, and economically poorer, part of the population. More officers are white and university educated, but many NCOs are Maori. The head of the military is Maori. Many Maori families are multi-generational army families. We also have a part-time reserve force, the Territorials. I don't know the social composition of the Terries, but I suspect it's probably not so working class. The only people I know who have joined it have been at university and lots of them were utter prats, going on to careers in law etc. Of course the army's elite force, the SAS, would act as assassins for the state to the bitter end. Would the regular army go over to the revolution? I don't know but I'd have more faith in it doing so than the cops. And I know that if we had a revolutionary situation and the army did defect en masse, we'd have a huge issue to deal with in preventing the military from hijacking the revolution. But I remain unconvinced that any of these issues would be any different if the rank and file were formally conscripted instead of economically conscripted as is the case now. During WWI, socialists were gaoled for their opposition to conscription. That was a principled position and I think it was the correct one. By WWII, those same (now ex) socialists were leading the Labour government and gaoling opponents of conscription. I think it's an important question but I don't think it's been resolved to the degree that S.Artesian assumes. Cheers, John ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
