Replying to Artesian : SA: "... the conditions required for the maintenance and accumulation of capital make the "lesser evil"-- the "liberal alternative"-- irrelevant, incapable, of reversing any of those conditions."
True, but the overwhelming mass of Democratic voters don’t expect the party to "reverse the conditions required for the maintenance and accumulation of capital.” They’re have little illusion that the party seeks the overthrow of the system, and most would say that is also not their aim. They vote for the party as the liberal alternative which will hopefully *ameliorate* their conditions or at least *defend* their current social benefits and democratic rights against the Republicans. Even the most politically conscious Democratic activists who characterize the party as a “lesser evil” now recognize that building an opposition to the party leadership and program and leading a "dirty break” is no easy matter because of its supporters deep-rooted fear of the Republican alternative, particularly since the rise of the Trumpist right. SA: "Now Marv claims if this were 1912 or 1920 we wouldn't have this discussion because there was theoretically a vibrant independent class based movement, but that's just not accurate for this very question of choosing between and among capital-isms has infested every working class movement since the Knights of Labor. It was the core issue in the AFL--manifested particularly in the AFL's support of Jim Crow unions; it was the main question and issue that divided the working class in struggles in the CIO, in the Oakland general strike, in Operation Dixie." I wasn’t referring to divisions with the class but within Marxism. The US Marxist left has regularly debated whether and how to orient to the Democrats since the CPUSA first made that turn towards Roosevelt’s DP in the 1930’s. The discussion has become more pronounced following the sharp decline of the international socialist and trade union movement over the past four decades.. This Democrats were not an issue when that movement was on the upswing. Marxists then had no difficulty choosing between the conservative craft unionists of the AFL and militant union leaders like Debs, or between the Socialist Party and the Democrats. History seemed clearly to be moving in our direction in the wake of the Russian Revolution. The Socialist Party was a viable and growing alternative, and the Democrats were reviled as the party of the Red Scare which was persecuting socialists, had jailed their leader Debs, deported Emma Goldman and other foreign-born radicals, and suppressed the IWW and its affiliated unions. There is a world of difference between the objective conditions and level of class and political consciousness then and now. You could implant Lenin, Trotsky, and the other Bolsheviks in Brooklyn today and they would confront the same obstacles and be forced to adjust their tactics or operate on the margins of political life in open opposition to the Democrats in the same manner as today’s tiny vanguard sects which identify with the Marxist and Leninist tradition. Given Lenin’s approach to the British Labour Party (and the "French turn" for admirers of Trotsky and Popular Front for admirers of Stalin) I expect they would adjust. SA: "Those who think this issue only arises because of the lack of working class independence and therefore Marxists must "meet the class where it is" forget that working class independence does not spring forth sui generis, but is only established by persistent, implacable, and sometimes unpopular opposition to capitalism as a system, capitalists as a class, and capitalist parties as realistic alternatives. ” This assumes that the militant trade unions emerged from the socialist movement, not the other way round. Moreover, Marxists have always stressed the need to meet the class where it is. It is idealism to imagine that socialists can conjure up the old movement by dint of “persistent” and “implacable” opposition to capitalism and capitalist parties, particularly when such inspiring rhetoric is directed at the workers from outside their institutions and is widely perceived as hostile. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#29044): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/29044 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/104479559/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
