Hi y'all - well thank you for putting our "differences" in perspective. I'm sorry I didn't read the full article on flags. Once I saw that it was aimed at flags, I made the assumption that it did not include pins. I also didn't know about the arrests in the 60s and 70s for flag wearing which seems ridiculous.
It seems we agree about much relating to businesses. There is no way they could be democracies and must be run from the top down. Having said that, a successful business owner will realize that one of his greatest assets is his staff. If he can provide a pleasant and fair experience for his staff he will be a long way towards success. You mention Oregon and I have no personal experience of that State, but I can tell you that here, in the Mid South, workers are hard to come by. There are plenty of unemployed people but workers......... I do have experience of California and I found the rules and regs. there to be overwhelming - I moved back to Tennessee. I also have experience of businesses in Europe and I found much of the same there, where the regulations are similar to California but more strictly enforced. I guess that what I'm really saying is that I believe businesses that are not offering a fair deal to their employees will struggle and have a huge turnover in staff - I see many examples. On the other hand employees who want an easy ride will find that, unless they are working for the Govt. they will receive short shrift from any good business. I suppose this could be viewed as a kind of democratic process where businesses that have the support of the people will prosper. I know of businesses where there is a waiting list for employees and also where they can't get the staff. I imagine that, in the present economic climate, a big shake up is afoot and the wheat will be separated from the chaff. Thank you for giving me some insight. On Oct 9, 9:11 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Perhaps you didn’t read much of what I shared. If one does, it will be > seen that flag pins are considered flags and are open to all of the > rules and regulations associated with the flag. The following is a > short bit from:http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html#q031 > > Are flags on T-shirts, ties, etc., really flags? > > Yes. According to the Flag Code, a flag is anything "by which the > average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the > same to represent the flag." > The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall > include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or > representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of > any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently > purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of > the United States of America or a picture or a representation of > either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the > stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of > either, by which the average person seeing the same without > deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, > standard, or ensign of the United States of America. > Source: Flag Code, Section 3 > Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, > with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and > ties. > The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section 8d): > "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel." > > So you can ‘see where I’m coming from’, here is a long list of > rulings about the > flag.http://atheism.about.com/od/flagburningdesecration/a/FlagTimeline_2.htm > > If one looks long enough at this, you will come to what happened in > the 60s and 70s when I watched people get arrested for wearing stars > and bars as a shirt even though the cloth never was a flag. Also, the > same happened for those who wore flag patches, painted it on motor > cycle helmets etc. > > When you say “I see nothing wrong with sporting a flag pin to identify > nationality and perhaps show a little pride in the first democratic > country to preach separation of Church and State.” – clog > > I will say that I agree with your thought that one can wear whatever > the heck one wants. I’m making a different claim and that has to do > with legal use of the ‘flag’. > > Later you say “If I didn't feel proud to be an American, I wouldn't be > here, and I've no plans to become a fanatical patriot or to support > any military advances. All my points were aimed at life in the USA.” – > clog > > In the 60s and 70s, the radical right constantly were shouting that > they were ‘proud to be an American’ and, at the same time, were > putting people in jail who wore the flag because they saw it as being > unamerican! By the way, the term fanatical as I used it did not imply > military advances. I’m pointing at a state of mind, a way of thinking. > And, whenever one begins down the slope of saying how much one likes > something or dislikes it, the seeds have been planted. > > More to the point, when you say that your points were ‘aimed at life > in the USA’, when I used the German analogy, my point was that things > change within countries and nationalism of any level can arise and > ‘take control’. (anywhere at all) > > Later you say “I have a differing view on business.” I’m not sure we > have different views about business at all. I implied that they are in > no way a democracy. Your comment about your expectations support this > fact. I too have had and have businesses so am in no way a stranger to > the ‘animal’. > > As to the way you link freedom and the right to work for others and/or > self, I can see how you have arrived at this assumption. At least in a > general way so will not criticize it. > > However, when you say you don’t believe the government’s unemployment > numbers, I agree in a sense. The sense that they have become and are > greatly understated. Today, it does seem like work ethics and other > areas of ignorance do result in less desirable slave….er, employees! : > - ) > Of course, we live in different areas of the country. Oregon has been > 50th and 49th most of the last decade when it comes to employment. So, > for me, the idea of computers to receive employment applications does > nothing for me. > > You now ask me why I take such a hard line on businesses. I wasn’t > aware that I was doing this, however, after hearing your bad > experiences with businesses, I can see how you would see everything > through that lens. When I said that most businesses were run as > dictatorships, this is mere fact. Most businesses are run from the top > down as you have already stated. Businesses are in no real way > democratic. At least, not the vast majority of them. You next conflate > your past experience with paperwork and regulation with the current > topic again. > > Overall, in many ways we see things quite the same. In this case, we > both think that there are too many ‘rules’, at least for the small > businessman today. We both see that business owners have it hard. We > both see that business owners set the rules for employees and when > they are not followed, they are fired. We both think that people > should be able to wear anything at all, flag or not. I suspect that > most apparent ‘differences’ are either misunderstandings and/or > different motivations for the same actions/beliefs. > > On Oct 9, 5:54 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - thanks for the differing view which I don't completely > > agree with. > > > First on the flag. I took your comment to be on flag pins. I do know > > about rules governing use of the flag. I see nothing wrong with > > sporting a flag pin to identify nationality and perhaps show a little > > pride in the first democratic country to preach separation of Church > > and State. If I didn't feel proud to be an American, I wouldn't be > > here, and I've no plans to become a fanatical patriot or to support > > any military advances. All my points were aimed at life in the USA. > > > I have a differing view on business. My wife runs a small business and > > I've been involved in plenty. We tried many times during our first > > decade here to hire staff but non lasted more than a week. We didn't > > enforce a dress code but we did require punctuality and a fair day's > > work. Eventually we quit, and my wife remained as a one woman business > > - she is doing very nicely thank you. Business owners in this country > > have my sympathy. > > > Freedom includes the right to sell one's labor or the right to labor > > for oneself. I see these freedoms spread liberally around this country > > and no reason to revolt against them. Every large store that I walk > > into has a computer and keyboard set up to take instant applications > > for employment. I tend to avoid the many restaurants that have the > > "now hiring" sign up, as I know they are short of staff. I don't know > > how the Govt. comes up with the unemployment figures - I do not accept > > them. I do believe that many people make themselves unemployable > > either by their work ethic (lack thereof) or their personal habits. > > > I wonder why we have such diametrically opposed views? Why do you take > > such a hard line on businesses? The unpaid time spent on unnecessary > > paperwork alone should be enough to deter anyone but a commited > > masochist. > > > On Oct 9, 6:02 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Yes clog, this is what ‘common sense’ comes up with. It also > > > represents the blind spot found within any specific sense of identity. > > > (nationalism, theological and/or wage slave in this case) > > > > Taking your points one by one, and continuing to admit they are common > > > memes, let us do an analysis. > > > > 1. “permissible” – Most workers do submit to the authority of their > > > employers, thus in this sense you are absolutely correct. Yet, even > > > here, IF the culture were one that did not submit so easily, any > > > pretense of a ‘right to make a uniform mandatory…’ disappears in > > > smoke. Cultures differ, memes differ, businesses differ. Even though > > > there is a movement afloat to unify most cultures into a global one, > > > even this need not be submitted to. > > > > 2. “reasonable” – To state that it is reasonable to insist on no > > > symbols “religious or otherwise” in one breath and then in another > > > breath say that flags are fine, expected by you and believed to be a > > > sign of pride and respectability by you highlights how relative this > > > notion of being ‘reasonable’ is. > > > > 3. “freedom” – The old saw of “no one is forced to….”, again is > > > commonly believed and supported. Yet, when examined further, > > > currently, within our specific cultures, most people do and must work. > > > In this sense, to be able to eat and have clothing and shelter, a job > > > is a necessity. So, there is less freedom here than first imagined. > > > Looking even more closely, your supposition that there is and will > > > always be a rainbow of differing business models, tastes and > > > motivations is also commonly believed. Yet, it is clear that even > > > today many countries (cultures) are experiencing upheaval of differing > > > amounts when it comes to religious tolerance and control of cultural > > > mores, laws and memes. Small example, in some muslem states, to wear, > > > expose or even own most if not all religious icons is more than > > > frowned upon. So, even though this is a specific and limited example, > > > my point is that this sort of change can easily occur. This can easily > > > be extended to nationalism and whether it is found to be respectable > > > or not. Pick any country, say china and then pick any theology and see > > > if there is a ‘fit’ or not. And, no, in most cases, the citizens do > > > not have the ‘freedom’ to move to a > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
