“I worked in a Nationalized industry and the consensus amongst employees was that "The Govt. has deep pockets - let's get all we can." I had relatives and friends in other Nationalized industries who reported the same attitude - days off with pay - theft of materials - pensions for life - I really could go on about the difficulty in terminating staff, the creation of new positions to fulfill some unnecessary need. Perhaps it is different in your neck of the woods but even here in Tennessee, I'm told that teachers cannot be terminated after 3 years of service. Of course, motivation ceases after 3 years.” – clog
A few things about your thoughts here clog…first, I’m quite interested in which industry (s) you are talking about. I know that the attitudes you mention about ‘deep pockets’ etc. hold true for public and/or private employees. This from direct personal experience and includes even the very smallest of private employers, with one, apparently ‘rich’ owner. In fact, he was poor and had legal judgments against him prohibiting his ownership of anything without it being confiscated. This includes theft, which IF one does an honest study, one will find runs across all of society in all economic areas and all venues. The same is true for time off with pay, which, if I understand your view of a democratic business would always be offered and supported by the owner. The same would be true for pensions, which, sadly, have gone the way of the dodo bird. They used to exist, say in the US auto industry, (NOT a government industry, - yet. After the next phase of the bailout it may be.) of course, one can see how this ‘being nice’ to employees has affected them. This said, the failure of Flint Michigan’s auto industry was not caused by the worker. It was caused by the unilateral judgments and rule by fiat of top management. CEOs mainly. Continuing about your attitude about difficulty in termination of staff…again, IF the employer were not draconian and dictator like, this should not be an issue, should it? I’m not saying that many positions are not needed, however much of my time in the private sector showed that unless these positions were held by family and/or lovers, most likely they would be eliminated. While in a State position, for over a decade, I watched the continual restructuring of systems and departments with the eye for leanness in most cases. While in a non-profit organization, I watched people be fired on the spot because there was no more funding available. While a CFO, I had to ‘let go’ employees for many reasons and seldom hesitated. So, from where I sit, your experience/attitude does not match my reality. Further, having family members in Mid-West state educational systems, I wouldn’t wish their recent (a couple of decades) treatment on anyone! “I'm shocked to learn that thousands apply for every position in your area - maybe the Govt. figures are right. If I drive the 50 miles to Memphis, I will be sure to see two or three "now hiring" signs en route. This has been the case in the 21 years that I've been here. Of course, these are restaurant jobs and the like, but still, they exist. I do not know a single large store such as Home Depot, Kroger, Wal Mart etc. that does not have a computer terminal near the door inviting applications. Why such a drastic difference across the country? I'll have to look into this.” – clog I don’t know which route you take clog, but two signs, an average of one per every 25 miles is not exactly a business boom nor a plethora of employment opportunities! And, yes, a few of us would rather not say ‘Do you want fries with that?’ instead of using our decades worth of skills, leaving such jobs for those who can do little else. This said, I’ve even delivered sandwiches, painted walls, been a grill cook etc. when necessary. When you trot out Wal Mart (a TRULY draconian company) and others along with computer terminals near doors inviting applications, I wonder if you ever take the time to wonder 1. Why are there computer terminals? 2. Why are they near the door? 3. Why are they available for self entry? 4. Why, IF there are jobs available does not the HR department want to talk directly with applicants? Etc. When analyzed, and since you have been involved in businesses, one can only conclude that these terminals are there mainly to 1. Save paper and storage costs related to applications 2. Save employee costs handing out, collecting and answering employment questions and 3. To give applicants something to do, a type of ‘hope’ that they can gain employment there. 4. Oh, yes, MAYBE a couple a month may be culled from the data base for interviews, said ‘culling’ being automated, rejecting hundreds, perhaps thousands with nary a care in the world. So, overall, I strongly suggest that such ‘invitations’ to apply are false choices and/or opportunities. Do look into the differences across the country when it comes to employment, it would be educational if nothing else. One small heads up I’ll share with you, here in Oregon, we are an “At will” state when it comes to employment. A quick translation of this is that the employer can hire and fire all employees ‘at will’. Laws associated with employment differ from state to state and in some cases even down to the county level. Enjoy! On Oct 10, 8:32 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi y'all - my use of the term "support of the people" was meant to > relate just to businesses, in that those who offer a fair policy to > their employees, are never short of good workers and thus have the > support of the people. If people vote (choose ) to work for a good > business that is a form of democratic choice. I was saying no more > than that. > > I worked in a Nationalized industry and the consensus amongst > employees was that "The Govt. has deep pockets - let's get all we > can." I had relatives and friends in other Nationalized industries who > reported the same attitude - days off with pay - theft of materials - > pensions for life - I really could go on about the difficulty in > terminating staff, the creation of new positions to fulfill some > unnecessary need. Perhaps it is different in your neck of the woods > but even here in Tennessee, I'm told that teachers cannot be > terminated after 3 years of service. Of course, motivation ceases > after 3 years. > > I'm shocked to learn that thousands apply for every position in your > area - maybe the Govt. figures are right. If I drive the 50 miles to > Memphis, I will be sure to see two or three "now hiring" signs en > route. This has been the case in the 21 years that I've been here. Of > course, these are restaurant jobs and the like, but still, they exist. > I do not know a single large store such as Home Depot, Kroger, Wal > Mart etc. that does not have a computer terminal near the door > inviting applications. Why such a drastic difference across the > country? I'll have to look into this. > > On Oct 10, 10:07 am, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Again, I understand your belief about how businesses that are nice > > (“fair”) to their employees should do better. Unfortunately, in my > > experience, this is seldom the case. It is true in a few instances, > > yes. This said, perhaps I misunderstood your phrase “support of the > > people”. So far, I have made the assumption that you were talking > > about employees. IF you are now shifting to all of society, well, it > > should be a new topic. Quickly I’ll agree that IF this is your > > intention it is a commonly presented view lacking substance. > > > And, having worked in the private, public (State) and non-profit > > sectors, I can say definitively that your stereotype about government > > workers is seldom the case. > > > IF you are attempting to make a comparison between a democracy and > > businesses, I suggest that in the current context even a > > representative democracy doesn’t fit the analogy. > > > Your anecdotal story of businesses without staff members is > > interesting. Where I live, hundreds and in some cases thousands of > > people apply for almost every position. Those who don’t make the cut > > remain out of work. This plus the addition of millions of more > > unemployed as is predicted for the current global economic condition > > results in, overall, an enormous and growing army of the unemployed. > > This indeed is a shake up! > > > On Oct 10, 7:36 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi y'all - well thank you for putting our "differences" in > > > perspective. I'm sorry I didn't read the full article on flags. Once I > > > saw that it was aimed at flags, I made the assumption that it did not > > > include pins. I also didn't know about the arrests in the 60s and 70s > > > for flag wearing which seems ridiculous. > > > > It seems we agree about much relating to businesses. There is no way > > > they could be democracies and must be run from the top down. Having > > > said that, a successful business owner will realize that one of his > > > greatest assets is his staff. If he can provide a pleasant and fair > > > experience for his staff he will be a long way towards success. You > > > mention Oregon and I have no personal experience of that State, but I > > > can tell you that here, in the Mid South, workers are hard to come by. > > > There are plenty of unemployed people but workers......... I do have > > > experience of California and I found the rules and regs. there to be > > > overwhelming - I moved back to Tennessee. I also have experience of > > > businesses in Europe and I found much of the same there, where the > > > regulations are similar to California but more strictly enforced. > > > > I guess that what I'm really saying is that I believe businesses that > > > are not offering a fair deal to their employees will struggle and have > > > a huge turnover in staff - I see many examples. On the other hand > > > employees who want an easy ride will find that, unless they are > > > working for the Govt. they will receive short shrift from any good > > > business. I suppose this could be viewed as a kind of democratic > > > process where businesses that have the support of the people will > > > prosper. I know of businesses where there is a waiting list for > > > employees and also where they can't get the staff. I imagine that, in > > > the present economic climate, a big shake up is afoot and the wheat > > > will be separated from the chaff. > > > > Thank you for giving me some insight. > > > > On Oct 9, 9:11 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Perhaps you didn’t read much of what I shared. If one does, it will be > > > > seen that flag pins are considered flags and are open to all of the > > > > rules and regulations associated with the flag. The following is a > > > > short bit from:http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html#q031 > > > > > Are flags on T-shirts, ties, etc., really flags? > > > > > Yes. According to the Flag Code, a flag is anything "by which the > > > > average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the > > > > same to represent the flag." > > > > The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall > > > > include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or > > > > representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of > > > > any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently > > > > purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of > > > > the United States of America or a picture or a representation of > > > > either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the > > > > stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of > > > > either, by which the average person seeing the same without > > > > deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, > > > > standard, or ensign of the United States of America. > > > > Source: Flag Code, Section 3 > > > > Therefore, a flag includes any representation of it of any substance, > > > > with stars and stripes of any number. This would include T-shirts and > > > > ties. > > > > The Flag Code states that the flag should never be worn. (Section 8d): > > > > "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel." > > > > > So you can ‘see where I’m coming from’, here is a long list of > > > > rulings about the > > > > flag.http://atheism.about.com/od/flagburningdesecration/a/FlagTimeline_2.htm > > > > > If one looks long enough at this, you will come to what happened in > > > > the 60s and 70s when I watched people get arrested for wearing stars > > > > and bars as a shirt even though the cloth never was a flag. Also, the > > > > same happened for those who wore flag patches, painted it on motor > > > > cycle helmets etc. > > > > > When you say “I see nothing wrong with sporting a flag pin to identify > > > > nationality and perhaps show a little pride in the first democratic > > > > country to preach separation of Church and State.” – clog > > > > > I will say that I agree with your thought that one can wear whatever > > > > the heck one wants. I’m making a different claim and that has to do > > > > with legal use of the ‘flag’. > > > > > Later you say “If I didn't feel proud to be an American, I wouldn't be > > > > here, and I've no plans to become a fanatical patriot or to support > > > > any military advances. All my points were aimed at life in the USA.” – > > > > clog > > > > > In the 60s and 70s, the radical right constantly were shouting that > > > > they were ‘proud to be an American’ and, at the same time, were > > > > putting people in jail who wore the flag because they saw it as being > > > > unamerican! By the way, the term fanatical as I used it did not imply > > > > military advances. I’m pointing at a state of mind, a way of thinking. > > > > And, whenever one begins down the slope of saying how much one likes > > > > something or dislikes it, the seeds have been planted. > > > > > More to the point, when you say that your points were ‘aimed at life > > > > in the USA’, when I used the German analogy, my point was that things > > > > change within countries and nationalism of any level can arise and > > > > ‘take control’. (anywhere at all) > > > > > Later you say “I have a differing view on business.” I’m not sure we > > > > have different views about business at all. I implied that they are in > > > > no way a democracy. Your comment about your expectations support this > > > > fact. I too have had and have businesses so am in no way a stranger to > > > > the ‘animal’. > > > > > As to the way you link freedom and the right to work for others and/or > > > > self, I can see how you have arrived at this assumption. At least in a > > > > general way so will not criticize it. > > > > > However, when you say you don’t believe the government’s unemployment > > > > numbers, I agree in a sense. The sense that they have become and are > > > > greatly understated. Today, it does seem like work ethics and other > > > > areas of ignorance do result in less desirable slave….er, employees! : > > > > - ) > > > > Of course, we live in different areas of the country. Oregon has been > > > > 50th and 49th most of the last decade when it comes to employment. So, > > > > for me, the idea of computers to receive employment applications does > > > > nothing for me.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
