that brings up a good question Aaron. IF (cap. spelling inspird by Orn. :-)) one comes to a belief and one is shown to be wrong or holding a false belief and one refuses to change their belief, then that right there excludes them as a freethinker... Even if they use "critical thinking", there is selective bias. Take for instance anyone who believes in the three Omni- GOD. Those Omni's break down and contradict one another. Logic says it is not possible to hold all three and be consistant. If is is pointed out and that person is still holding on to that belief (a theist for instance) then, no, they are not a freethinker. But this does not address every type of "belief". But the article was about the possibility of a theist being a freethinker. Maybe in a limited sense it could be put that way. Mybe they could be simi-freethinkers? :-) A new fundamentalist friend of mine and I talked about holding open minds, willingness to be open to new evidence, "freethought". I asked if he would be willing to give up the belief that Jesus Christ is his lord and savior and that Jesus died and rose again IF it were shown to be a falsehood. He said "no". Is that a "freethinker"?
I need to go back an re-read that article I guess. :-) stemcell On Oct 28, 5:56 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi y'all - I'm addressing theists as he does in the article. In order > to be a theist one must have faith. Critical thinking is the very > antithesis of faith. Faith requires no thought, simply blind > acceptance. > > On Oct 28, 5:35 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > You keep talking about someone who is exercising faith. Lowder > > isn't. Why shouldn't a person who arives at his belief (whatever it > > is) through the appropriate exercise of critical thinking and logic be > > considered a freethinker? > > > On Oct 28, 5:10 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi y'all - yes I've read it. In the first paragraph he poses the > > > question "Can a theist be a freethinker?" He answers "Yes," but I > > > answer "No" for my given reasons. Reading Swinburne doesn't change a > > > person's faith. In the second paragraph he lists the CFA definition of > > > freethought which I agree with. As stated, I agree with him that not > > > all atheists are freethinkers. Where's the conflict? > > > > On Oct 28, 4:50 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Clog, are you sure you read the same essay? I don't see a connection > > > > between what you wrote and anything Lowder proposed. Why shouldn't > > > > the the theist described in the essay be considered a freethinker? > > > > > On Oct 28, 4:07 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi y'all - sorry, my replies tend to be as brief as I can make them, > > > > > and I thought I'd been clear. > > > > > I disagree with the premise that a theist, (truly religious) can be a > > > > > Freethinker in the definition given, which I agree with. The true > > > > > believer's life is based on Faith without evidence. Faith requires no > > > > > thought - merely parrot fashion repetition ad infinitum. If one is > > > > > going to base a substantial part of one's life on Faith, then I submit > > > > > that Freethinking is omitted as not only redundant, but positively > > > > > discouraged by Faith. > > > > > > On Oct 28, 3:21 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I thought he gave a good example of how a theist could be a > > > > > > freethinker. Surely it deserves more in the way of a rebuttal than > > > > > > "I > > > > > > disagree." Why do you disagree? > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 10:55 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I think Crotchbow is appealing. I don't agree with the > > > > > > > article posted by Aaron. The CFA definition is fine with me. Of > > > > > > > course, if we accept a theist as being a true believer and not > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > someone who attends church for social reasons etc. then they are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > practicing freethought as their faith is illogical (Mr. Spock > > > > > > > episode > > > > > > > 284 11/2/84.) I do agree with the article in respect to all > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > not being freethinkers - some are just too lazy to think. > > > > > > > Nevertheless, I feel that Freethinker is a good umbrella term, > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > pointed out, is unrestrictive versus confining. > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 3:37 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think Crotchblow has a point. In the early days we went > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > this. But before I go any further, I would like to ask Aaron > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > prompted you to post that link? Are you considering that it > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > an idea to consider changing the name of MFA? It is the name. > > > > > > > > It is > > > > > > > > inclusive. It is inviting (I think). Why should MFA change > > > > > > > > the name > > > > > > > > just to bow down to certain groups who feel it is offensive. I > > > > > > > > am > > > > > > > > getting to far along in thought so I'll just wait till I hear > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > response to those previous questions. > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > stemcell > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 1:47 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is about ownership of a definition as an organization. > > > > > > > > > WE can > > > > > > > > > either show ownership and give this word a bent in respect to > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > organizations mission, or we can leave it as an open-ended > > > > > > > > > question, > > > > > > > > > thereby allowing any existing and future members to give it > > > > > > > > > thier own > > > > > > > > > personal meaning without holding them captive to it. > > > > > > > > > > Well and so, if you have a concrete mission you should have a > > > > > > > > > concrete > > > > > > > > > bent to brand the whole to be easily identified...Replace the > > > > > > > > > organizational name with any other representation wording and > > > > > > > > > what do > > > > > > > > > you get? Memphis Freethough Alliance...Memphis Secular > > > > > > > > > Alliance? > > > > > > > > > Memphis Skeptic Alliance? Who is your target member? > > > > > > > > > > FREE - unrestricted vs. captive? > > > > > > > > > THINKING - not something encouraged by any diety or theism I > > > > > > > > > know > > > > > > > > > of.... > > > > > > > > > > It works for my framework and perceptions limited though they > > > > > > > > > are. > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 12:50 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It was probably a mistake for me to post the first > > > > > > > > > > paragraph of > > > > > > > > > > Lowder's essay or to offer a summary. It's too easy (and > > > > > > > > > > perfectly > > > > > > > > > > natural) for people to respond to my blurb rather than to > > > > > > > > > > the essay > > > > > > > > > > itself. I'm always happy to hear what my fellow > > > > > > > > > > freethinkers think, > > > > > > > > > > but I am especially interested in your review of the > > > > > > > > > > specific ideas > > > > > > > > > > expressed in the essay and how they might impact MFA. > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/lowder1.html > > > > > > > > > > > Aaron- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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