Hi y'all - I cannot accept the argument that one can become a theist through logic and reason. The very essence of a belief in the supernatural is via faith. Logic and reason cannot lead one there. That's why I discount his argument. Similarly, with Russell's argument, the deduction is fallacious as it is not based on logic or reason. Heaven is supernatural therefore one cannot sensibly get there from here. Simply listening to other views is not freethinking. Our party at Occam's every Monday listen to our views, but most of the theists there could not be described as freethinkers even in the wildest stretch of the imagination. That's enough for me - it's logical.
On Oct 28, 6:25 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Clog, The author posits a person who becomes a theist through logic > and reason (not faith), and asks if that person should be considered a > freethinker. You just ignore his argument by asserting, "In order to > be a theist one must have faith." If that's all you've got then > that's all you've got. It's not enough for me. > > How do you respond to this quote from Bertrand Russell: "An Arab who, > starting from the first principles of human reason, is able to deduce > that the Koran was not created, but existed eternally in heaven, may > be counted as a free thinker, provided he is willing to listen to > counter arguments and subject his ratiocination to critical > scrutiny. ... What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the > way in which he holds them." > > Aaron > > On Oct 28, 5:56 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - I'm addressing theists as he does in the article. In order > > to be a theist one must have faith. Critical thinking is the very > > antithesis of faith. Faith requires no thought, simply blind > > acceptance. > > > On Oct 28, 5:35 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > You keep talking about someone who is exercising faith. Lowder > > > isn't. Why shouldn't a person who arives at his belief (whatever it > > > is) through the appropriate exercise of critical thinking and logic be > > > considered a freethinker? > > > > On Oct 28, 5:10 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - yes I've read it. In the first paragraph he poses the > > > > question "Can a theist be a freethinker?" He answers "Yes," but I > > > > answer "No" for my given reasons. Reading Swinburne doesn't change a > > > > person's faith. In the second paragraph he lists the CFA definition of > > > > freethought which I agree with. As stated, I agree with him that not > > > > all atheists are freethinkers. Where's the conflict? > > > > > On Oct 28, 4:50 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Clog, are you sure you read the same essay? I don't see a connection > > > > > between what you wrote and anything Lowder proposed. Why shouldn't > > > > > the the theist described in the essay be considered a freethinker? > > > > > > On Oct 28, 4:07 pm, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi y'all - sorry, my replies tend to be as brief as I can make them, > > > > > > and I thought I'd been clear. > > > > > > I disagree with the premise that a theist, (truly religious) can be > > > > > > a > > > > > > Freethinker in the definition given, which I agree with. The true > > > > > > believer's life is based on Faith without evidence. Faith requires > > > > > > no > > > > > > thought - merely parrot fashion repetition ad infinitum. If one is > > > > > > going to base a substantial part of one's life on Faith, then I > > > > > > submit > > > > > > that Freethinking is omitted as not only redundant, but positively > > > > > > discouraged by Faith. > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 3:21 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought he gave a good example of how a theist could be a > > > > > > > freethinker. Surely it deserves more in the way of a rebuttal > > > > > > > than "I > > > > > > > disagree." Why do you disagree? > > > > > > > > On Oct 28, 10:55 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I think Crotchbow is appealing. I don't agree with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > article posted by Aaron. The CFA definition is fine with me. Of > > > > > > > > course, if we accept a theist as being a true believer and not > > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > someone who attends church for social reasons etc. then they > > > > > > > > are not > > > > > > > > practicing freethought as their faith is illogical (Mr. Spock > > > > > > > > episode > > > > > > > > 284 11/2/84.) I do agree with the article in respect to all > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > not being freethinkers - some are just too lazy to think. > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, I feel that Freethinker is a good umbrella term, > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > pointed out, is unrestrictive versus confining. > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 3:37 pm, stem cell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think Crotchblow has a point. In the early days we went > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > > this. But before I go any further, I would like to ask Aaron > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > prompted you to post that link? Are you considering that it > > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > an idea to consider changing the name of MFA? It is the > > > > > > > > > name. It is > > > > > > > > > inclusive. It is inviting (I think). Why should MFA change > > > > > > > > > the name > > > > > > > > > just to bow down to certain groups who feel it is offensive. > > > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > getting to far along in thought so I'll just wait till I hear > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > response to those previous questions. > > > > > > > > > > :-) > > > > > > > > > > stemcell > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 1:47 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > This is about ownership of a definition as an organization. > > > > > > > > > > WE can > > > > > > > > > > either show ownership and give this word a bent in respect > > > > > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > > > organizations mission, or we can leave it as an open-ended > > > > > > > > > > question, > > > > > > > > > > thereby allowing any existing and future members to give it > > > > > > > > > > thier own > > > > > > > > > > personal meaning without holding them captive to it. > > > > > > > > > > > Well and so, if you have a concrete mission you should have > > > > > > > > > > a concrete > > > > > > > > > > bent to brand the whole to be easily identified...Replace > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > organizational name with any other representation wording > > > > > > > > > > and what do > > > > > > > > > > you get? Memphis Freethough Alliance...Memphis Secular > > > > > > > > > > Alliance? > > > > > > > > > > Memphis Skeptic Alliance? Who is your target member? > > > > > > > > > > > FREE - unrestricted vs. captive? > > > > > > > > > > THINKING - not something encouraged by any diety or theism > > > > > > > > > > I know > > > > > > > > > > of.... > > > > > > > > > > > It works for my framework and perceptions limited though > > > > > > > > > > they are. > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 12:50 pm, Aaron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It was probably a mistake for me to post the first > > > > > > > > > > > paragraph of > > > > > > > > > > > Lowder's essay or to offer a summary. It's too easy (and > > > > > > > > > > > perfectly > > > > > > > > > > > natural) for people to respond to my blurb rather than to > > > > > > > > > > > the essay > > > > > > > > > > > itself. I'm always happy to hear what my fellow > > > > > > > > > > > freethinkers think, > > > > > > > > > > > but I am especially interested in your review of the > > > > > > > > > > > specific ideas > > > > > > > > > > > expressed in the essay and how they might impact MFA. > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/lowder1.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Aaron- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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