I like Debbie but it amazes me that she believes in that supernatural stuff. J. For the first time, I want to go to an Occam's meeting someday. Thanks to Debbie. Ironic, eh?
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Jason (Memphis) <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) > wrote: The below email is a follow-up email from Debbie (a Christian) about a discussion among Steve A, Steve W., Chris S. & Debbie after Occam's at Huey's. I like many of her suggestions for future signs. The billboard has a paraphrased bible verse that MFA put along the highway, that is, "Hate yourself and your Mama," which Jesus said in the Gospel of Luke. Jason _____________ Hey guys. Meant to get this out earlier in the week but have been busy. So, a bit late, but here goes: I'm still not really clear what your intent and desire is with the signs you're posting. Chris, you talk about wanting to be educational and wanting everyone to get along and not be divisive etc. If that's really what you want then you're going to need to start with dialogue. I don't see how posting slogans with random portions of scripture such as what you've chosen invites that dialogue. Just as you think it insulting for a pastor of a church to call all atheists immoral, I think the kinds of slogans you're considering will only insult a belief system and way of life that has great meaning for a lot of people. Just as you probably don't feel 'welcomed' or 'invited' by the pastor of a church calling you immoral, I don't think most Christians - particularly the ones who seem so offensive to you - will be drawn to you by those kinds of antagonistic signs. And you know they're antagonistic. Taking some verse completely out of context and sticking it on a sign and saying 'well, that's what the Bible says' is just antagonistic. You know that.. Which brings me to Steve's motives. Steve, you seem to indicate that you want to create dialogue but only for the purpose of convincing 'believers' of the folly of their belief. This is where you seem to have much in common with the above mentioned pastor. Do you really want to get to know Christians and understand why they believe what they do or do you just want to make them stop believing and see things your way? A lot of pastors don't want to bother getting to know someone and his belief system, the pastor just wants to convert him. That sounds a lot like what you were saying the other night. Some churches put up signs with some pretty outrageous slogans on them but I think the only people those signs attract are just more like minded Christians. Those kinds of church signs 'Think it's hot here? Hell's hotter!' don't welcome or intrigue people such as yourself. They just make you roll your eyes. And the signs you're talking about putting up will just make most Christians think you're all jerks at best and probably make them angry for the worst case scenario. Which, I have to say, does seem kind of like what you'd prefer sometimes. It's almost as though you're looking for a fight - a reason to file some kind of lawsuit.......... I think that's what got my Steve's Irish temper up the other night. So, putting up antagonistic signs may gain you a few more atheist members, but probably just the kind who will be as strongly prejudiced toward Christians as the pastor's congregation is prejudiced toward you. This seems to be in conflict with Chris's talk of us all getting along and educating one another. But, regardless of your motives, I do agree if the people at Whiteville Church (or any church) are being told that atheists are immoral, mean, ugly, blah blah, and choosing to believe it, most likely it is because these people have never put themselves in the position of sitting down face to face with an actual atheist and getting to know him/her via the much fabled 'intelligent dialogue' that some of you claim to desire. Or perhaps, they have had encounters with an atheist here or there but those atheists have been of the ass hole variety and the encounter has only served to underscore the teaching from the church that atheists are indeed all bad.. I make the proposal that you have atheists in MFA who are in the same boat - albeit on a different deck. They have never put themselves in the position of attempting true dialogue face to face with a Christian. Most likely they have had some negative experiences perhaps as a child in church or with family members, etc. so they have come to the conclusion that all Christians salivate at the thought of 'sinners in hell' and still believe that the earth is the center of the universe. They gather together just as the above mentioned church folk do and blast and mock the other 'side' for its beliefs. (The church folk are just careful to add a 'bless their hearts' at the end of their ridicule.) I'm telling you, when I've read some of the things written by some MFA folks I feel like I'm hearing church people. Just substitute the word sinner for the word stupid and it's the same thing. So, both groups can remain in their respective conclaves posting signs and hurling insults across the fence or.........they could actually come together and put faces and personalities with the titles and labels and learn that we all are actually real people with real feelings. It takes a certain amount of courage to do that. Most folks, unfortunately, are more comfortable and content to interact only with those who are like minded. I speak of both Christians and atheists. This is why I think Occam's is such a unique group. I think your friend Tom said it best when he called the group 'precious'. That's how I feel about it. And that's why I've been so bothered by the insanity on the website. I'm embarrassed to tell folks about the site because of some of postings on there that in no way reflect or represent what actually goes on at the group. If I just read the site I would not be curious about attending the meetings. I'd just assume it's a group of closed minded people ready to pounce on anyone with a different belief system. Again, Chris, not what you say you want. Having said all that, if you do really want to use your billboard to create true curiosity and possible opportunity for actual discussion, I suggest a different tactic than mere negative provocation. You asked for a list of slogans, here they are - free of charge - use them at will. (My daughter did major in advertising and I did occasionally help with homework.) 1. Atheists: No horns - no pitchforks - just a god free world view. or Atheists: No horns - no pitchforks - just a different world view. 2. Would you have dinner with an atheist? Luke 15:1-7 Matthew 9:10-13 3. Do you know why you believe? We'd like to tell you why we don't. or Do you know why you believe in God? We'd like to tell you why we don't. 4. Atheists: We're open to hearing your views. Are you willing to hear ours? 5. Just have a little talk....with an atheist. (You'll have to trust me on that one - it's a reference to a well known Christian song. Church folk would definitely get it.) 6. We'd like to hear your 'answer'. 1 Peter 3:15 or We know our answer, we'd like to hear yours. 1 Peter 3:15 There will always be those who will see the word 'atheists' and immediately leap to negative, unflattering conclusions and run for the hills - just as some people do when they see or hear the word 'Christian'. But if you really do want to stimulate thought and invite communication with those who might be willing to talk, I think you've got a better shot with these suggestions. 'You can stand tall without standing on someone.' -Harriet Woods Deborah E. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. 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