Jason, thanks! :-)
On Nov 3, 12:54 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Whoops... it is all public money :-) Public money for education and
> not public military money. Yes, you got me. It is all public
> money.
>
> On Nov 3, 2:46 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "... Many--not all--of the innovations are from the public university
> > professors working with students under military grant money and on
> > military projects..." - Jason
>
> > Jason, would you help me to understand what/which 'innovations' are
> > NOT from public money?
> > Thanks.
>
> > On Nov 3, 12:36 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I can say that Penn State University students get to work on a lot of
> > > military contracts. Many--not all--of the innovations are from the
> > > public university professors working with students under military
> > > grant money and on military projects (so public resources are being
> > > used). That was what Penn State engineers told me. I went to a
> > > private college below state college, and we had a cooperative program
> > > with their engineering department. I am sure that NASA uses MIT and
> > > Cal-Tech students and professors to help out with their engineering/
> > > space programs. In the Carnegie-Mellon MBA program, many of the
> > > business students work on Microsoft projects (and other corporate
> > > assignments). Graduates students and bright undergraduates are free,
> > > talented laborers who are more than happy to be used by corporations
> > > or military contractors. After graduation, a great job may be
> > > waiting in the wings that actually pays.
>
> > > On Nov 3, 2:22 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > I posed a question only of what innovations given by the crucible of
> > > > war...I feel you still taking the tack that I am pro-war thus perhaps
> > > > too defensive! Guess I should go further back to the original Roman
> > > > standing cross bow to make my question clearer. Is there anything you
> > > > can separate out that is solely military? I am asking for help here?
> > > > regardless of ROI...:)
>
> > > > YOU got to be kidding on the "research claimed" though? That list of
> > > > Army contractors tells us where they get thier supplies commercially,
> > > > not where the research originated. So, in essence, you say Skunkworks
> > > > itself gets thier designs from a publicly funded university? That I
> > > > can't wholly believe. Sure, some of it is shared, no one disputes
> > > > that, much innovation has always been commandeered by military for
> > > > military use. Much of it is funded/started by the military after they
> > > > have leveraged the scientists doing the research into a corner, afraid
> > > > to lose their jobs if they don't capitulate. That does not mean they
> > > > don't work directly for Skunk on skunk property, paid by Skunk. Scaled
> > > > Composites is on the NYSE, but I don't own stock in it:) Skunk is much
> > > > sexier stock...
>
> > > > If you can drop the anti-military set for just a moment and scrape
> > > > through to the innovations - separate them from the killing machine?
>
> > > > On Nov 3, 1:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > “…War is a crucible of innovation…” – CB
>
> > > > > Having been a CFO, ROI is of little value when doing a full
> > > > > situational analysis.
>
> > > > > And, when it comes to R & D, almost all ‘research’ claimed by Boeing,
> > > > > Lockheed Martin, GE, etc.
> > > > > (see:http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/
> > > > > ) is in fact produced in publicly funded Universities and then taken/
> > > > > given to the private sector. Since ‘we’ have to pay for everything the
> > > > > private sector makes with no credit for our initial funding, I don’t
> > > > > see how much ‘benefit’ can be claimed, at least not in a material nor
> > > > > financial way.
>
> > > > > Overall, the military budget is seen as being bloated and wasteful.
> > > > > While a political reference and only a very quick overview, some
> > > > > information can be gleaned
> > > > > at:http://www.votenader.org/issues/military-budget/
>
> > > > > As to Burt Rutan, perhaps he influenced the BD series that found it’s
> > > > > way into Budwiser commercials as well as James Bond films. And, of
> > > > > course, Scaled is owned by Northrop Grumman. Since this company is on
> > > > > the NYSE (NOC), perhaps one can get a great ROI by purchasing stock?
>
> > > > > Of course, you would be owning a lot of waste too. Cases in point:
> > > > > “Based on year 2002 data, researchers at the Political Economy
> > > > > Research Institute of the University of Massachusetts identified
> > > > > Northrop Grumman as the 17th-largest corporate producer of air
> > > > > pollution in the United States; according to their study, Northrop
> > > > > Grumman facilities released more than 520,000 pounds of toxic
> > > > > chemicals into the air in that year.”
> > > > > “The corporation has also been linked to 52 superfund toxic waste
> > > > > sites.”
> > > > > “In 2003, the company was among 84 parties with which the United
> > > > > States Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. Department of
> > > > > Justice, and the state of New York reached an estimated US$ 15 million
> > > > > settlement for the rehabilitation of the Mattiace Petrochemical
> > > > > Company Superfund site in Glen Cove, Long Island; in the same year,
> > > > > Northrop Grumman agreed to pay $33,214 after EPA inspectors found
> > > > > hazardous waste violations at the Capistrano test site.”
>
> > > > > “Northrop Grumman has had to deal with multiple scandals during its
> > > > > history. The company was sued in 1999 for allegedly knowingly giving
> > > > > the Navy defective aircraft. This suit seeks $210 million in damages
> > > > > and is ongoing. Then in 2003, the company was sued for allegedly
> > > > > overcharging the U.S. government for space projects in the 1990s.
> > > > > Northrop Grumman paid $111.2 million to settle that suit out of
> > > > > court.”
>
> > > > > You can also see how they figure into the purchase of political
> > > > > power.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman
>
> > > > > So, yes, I agree, the full story may include a lot of different issues
> > > > > and the ‘bottom line’, in this case deemed to be financial, continues
> > > > > to appear to be a big loss.
>
> > > > > On Nov 3, 7:26 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I did not suggest we should ever start a war to promote R&D. My
> > > > > > question better put was, if anything, what innovative gains have we
> > > > > > made? I just wonder how it rolls out on paper...it is an aspect
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > is interesting. War is a crucible of innovation. Nasty for sure,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > it happens.
>
> > > > > > I'm just glad folks like Burt Rutan are going to the outer limits of
> > > > > > the atmosphere with private funding, sans military.
>
> > > > > > On Nov 3, 9:20 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Hi y'all - all I can see is a huge defecit. R&D can be performed
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > many locations. We don't need to start, and try to control, a
> > > > > > > civil
> > > > > > > war to practice on.
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 3, 9:04 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Wonder how all that spendage relates in a return on investment
> > > > > > > > as regards
> > > > > > > > to military research and development? what is the return on
> > > > > > > > investment? I
> > > > > > > > know of some: composites, computer security...can anyone else
> > > > > > > > see any
> > > > > > > > positive return on military R&D?
>
> > > > > > > > wonder if anyone has numbers on that side? [?]
>
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - yes, it is almost as much as I lost last month
> > > > > > > > > during the
> > > > > > > > > debacle.
>
> > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 10:26 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > $3,000,000,000,000 for a war is a lot of money. That is
> > > > > > > > > > more money
> > > > > > > > > > than I made since the beginning of the war. :-)
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 10:55 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >http://www.good.is/?p=12104-Hidequotedtext-
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