I brought up return on investment trying to figure out if there was any positive side to the innovations brought about by the military machine. I asked for specific innovations anyone could trace to the military. It would be better to have used a positive inflection and say "what positive results have been achieved? I am sorry to be distracted but I am trying not to laugh my derier off in response to the Thorn Clone and may have jumped about too much - my communications problem again:) apologies...
Okay, where were we? yes, what innovations of a positive nature have been directly produced in relation to the military machine? composites? MRE's? I mean anything? Yeah, crossbow wasnt a positive creation was it? I mean the application had one intent...oops:) On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 2:43 PM, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Perhaps you can expand more beyond the cross bow? I found you started > out dealing with finance (ROI) and now appear to have shifted to > 'innovation'...and then to something that is 'solely military'. So, > sorry, no, I can't help here. I know of nothing that is 'solely > military'. > > And, the list I presented had only one purpose, to fill in the few > examples of contractors I had typed, nothing more. > > > On Nov 3, 12:22 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I posed a question only of what innovations given by the crucible of > > war...I feel you still taking the tack that I am pro-war thus perhaps > > too defensive! Guess I should go further back to the original Roman > > standing cross bow to make my question clearer. Is there anything you > > can separate out that is solely military? I am asking for help here? > > regardless of ROI...:) > > > > YOU got to be kidding on the "research claimed" though? That list of > > Army contractors tells us where they get thier supplies commercially, > > not where the research originated. So, in essence, you say Skunkworks > > itself gets thier designs from a publicly funded university? That I > > can't wholly believe. Sure, some of it is shared, no one disputes > > that, much innovation has always been commandeered by military for > > military use. Much of it is funded/started by the military after they > > have leveraged the scientists doing the research into a corner, afraid > > to lose their jobs if they don't capitulate. That does not mean they > > don't work directly for Skunk on skunk property, paid by Skunk. Scaled > > Composites is on the NYSE, but I don't own stock in it:) Skunk is much > > sexier stock... > > > > If you can drop the anti-military set for just a moment and scrape > > through to the innovations - separate them from the killing machine? > > > > On Nov 3, 1:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > "…War is a crucible of innovation…" – CB > > > > > Having been a CFO, ROI is of little value when doing a full > > > situational analysis. > > > > > And, when it comes to R & D, almost all 'research' claimed by Boeing, > > > Lockheed Martin, GE, etc. (see: > http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ > > > ) is in fact produced in publicly funded Universities and then taken/ > > > given to the private sector. Since 'we' have to pay for everything the > > > private sector makes with no credit for our initial funding, I don't > > > see how much 'benefit' can be claimed, at least not in a material nor > > > financial way. > > > > > Overall, the military budget is seen as being bloated and wasteful. > > > While a political reference and only a very quick overview, some > > > information can be gleaned at: > http://www.votenader.org/issues/military-budget/ > > > > > As to Burt Rutan, perhaps he influenced the BD series that found it's > > > way into Budwiser commercials as well as James Bond films. And, of > > > course, Scaled is owned by Northrop Grumman. Since this company is on > > > the NYSE (NOC), perhaps one can get a great ROI by purchasing stock? > > > > > Of course, you would be owning a lot of waste too. Cases in point: > > > "Based on year 2002 data, researchers at the Political Economy > > > Research Institute of the University of Massachusetts identified > > > Northrop Grumman as the 17th-largest corporate producer of air > > > pollution in the United States; according to their study, Northrop > > > Grumman facilities released more than 520,000 pounds of toxic > > > chemicals into the air in that year." > > > "The corporation has also been linked to 52 superfund toxic waste > > > sites." > > > "In 2003, the company was among 84 parties with which the United > > > States Environmental Protection Agency, the U.S. Department of > > > Justice, and the state of New York reached an estimated US$ 15 million > > > settlement for the rehabilitation of the Mattiace Petrochemical > > > Company Superfund site in Glen Cove, Long Island; in the same year, > > > Northrop Grumman agreed to pay $33,214 after EPA inspectors found > > > hazardous waste violations at the Capistrano test site." > > > > > "Northrop Grumman has had to deal with multiple scandals during its > > > history. The company was sued in 1999 for allegedly knowingly giving > > > the Navy defective aircraft. This suit seeks $210 million in damages > > > and is ongoing. Then in 2003, the company was sued for allegedly > > > overcharging the U.S. government for space projects in the 1990s. > > > Northrop Grumman paid $111.2 million to settle that suit out of > > > court." > > > > > You can also see how they figure into the purchase of political > > > power.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman > > > > > So, yes, I agree, the full story may include a lot of different issues > > > and the 'bottom line', in this case deemed to be financial, continues > > > to appear to be a big loss. > > > > > On Nov 3, 7:26 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I did not suggest we should ever start a war to promote R&D. My > > > > question better put was, if anything, what innovative gains have we > > > > made? I just wonder how it rolls out on paper...it is an aspect that > > > > is interesting. War is a crucible of innovation. Nasty for sure, > but > > > > it happens. > > > > > > I'm just glad folks like Burt Rutan are going to the outer limits of > > > > the atmosphere with private funding, sans military. > > > > > > On Nov 3, 9:20 am, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi y'all - all I can see is a huge defecit. R&D can be performed in > > > > > many locations. We don't need to start, and try to control, a civil > > > > > war to practice on. > > > > > > > On Nov 3, 9:04 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Wonder how all that spendage relates in a return on investment as > regards > > > > > > to military research and development? what is the return on > investment? I > > > > > > know of some: composites, computer security...can anyone else see > any > > > > > > positive return on military R&D? > > > > > > > > wonder if anyone has numbers on that side? [?] > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Clogtowner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi y'all - yes, it is almost as much as I lost last month > during the > > > > > > > debacle. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 10:26 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > $3,000,000,000,000 for a war is a lot of money. That is more > money > > > > > > > > than I made since the beginning of the war. :-) > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 1, 10:55 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.good.is/?p=12104-Hidequotedtext- > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > 329.gif > > > > > > < 1KViewDownload- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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