Hey dude, Smoke a J and you will understand J. “I am no expert on meditation, neuroscience or psychology- these are just logical observations and presumptions that I have.”- Preston
Hi Preston. I accept that these are presumptions (beliefs) that you have. I guess what I was wondering was what had led you to hold these beliefs. That is, IF there is anything other than an unexamined assumption (presumption) that isn’t based on anything. Yet, you do say that they are ‘logical observations’. I question that. (not you) In other words, I’m addressing your logic and/or thought processes here rather than any attack on the ‘man’. In that spirit, I’ll try again. Is there any foundation upon which you come to these conclusions? IF so, would you please list a few of those assumptions (axioms)? If not, that is fine. I’m just doing my best for some clarity here. Thanks again! I guess that in the spirit of egalitarianism, I should present some of my thinking. First, in no way am I sure about whether any specific state is exclusive to either being drug induced or meditation induced. My guess is that any state could be achieved through meditation including those that are drug induced. I do feel quite sure that the reverse is not the case. Again, only opinions. I base these guesses upon many decades of meditation and study about levels and states of consciousness. I won’t present my experience or lack thereof when it comes to drugs in a public forum, however, I do have many friends who have used almost every possible entheogen. This runs the gambit from iowaska to grass, from opiates to caffeine, from tobacco to psilocybin, from mescaline to alcohol, from sugar to LSD. Of course, this is in no way a complete list and I don’t know every drug used as an entheogen. I also did use the word in a more inclusive sense than is common for which I apologize. I did use it for those drugs not necessarily partaken for spiritual states too. This conflation, I’m sure has muddied the waters. That aside, I will say that I’m sure that many states can be achieved quicker by drug use. And, in no way would I advocate it for numerous reasons. So, perhaps if we continue this discussion, we should set aside different classes such as: Entheogens Prescription drugs for ‘therapeutic’ use. “Recreational” drugs. Of course, in one sense they are all drugs that alter the human psyche and are similar/the same. In another, perhaps such an analysis could help us gain more clarity on the issue. So, I anxiously await your response to my main question! On Nov 12, 4:28 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First, let me dispense with the term entheogen. I am not that familiar with > it so I'll stick to that with which I am familiar. > Yes, I am speaking in general. > There are some "states of mind", namely hallucinogenically induced, that I > do not think could be duplicated or acheived any other way. I also think > that some mental states could be acheived by either drugs, meditation or > some other mental discipline. > Conversely, I am sure that one could acheive some mental states via > meditation, etc. that would be hard to fabricate with drugs. In addition, > it seems to me that the process of reaching such levels is crucial to the > result and its given benefit. Simply taking a drug does not confer that > advantage. > Experimental drug use (or perhaps psychologically therapeutic drug use) can > lead to a differing perspective of the world and life because it changes > your perspective radically. Call it enlightening or destructive depending > on the context of usage. > I am no expert on meditation, neuroscience or psychology- these are just > logical observations and presumptions that I have. > > Preston > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ornamentalmind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance" > <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 11:48 PM > Subject: Re: Romancing the Stoned > > “…yet there may be some states that cannot be accessed by non- > entheogenic means and vice-versa…” – Preston > > Preston, I’ll assume that you are talking in general…by that I mean > I’ll guess you are generalizing about all people and not some specific > person(s) you know. Given that, exactly what states do you believe can > only be accessed by entheogens? I will leave out all psychotic ones > for now. And, assuming that you will have some sort of a list, I’ll > further ask how you come to the conclusion(s) about entheogenic states > and their exclusivity. > > On Nov 11, 7:13 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Quite true, yet there may be some states that cannot be accessed by > > non-entheogenic means and vice-versa. Granted, the path without ingestion, > > contact or inhalation requires discipline and therefore probably has > > benefits without the bad consequences of exogenous chemicals. > > > Preston > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ornamentalmind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance" > > <[email protected]> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 6:54 PM > > Subject: Re: Romancing the Stoned > > > "... Experimenting with altered states can be very enlightening; you > > just have to be sure of the situation you are in when you do. ..." - > > Prestone > > > While entheogens have been used 'forever', in no way are they a > > requirement for enlightened states. > > > On Nov 11, 1:46 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If it were legal, I think it would be fine recreationally. Triumph of > > > moderation is the key here. Experimenting with altered states can be > > > very > > > enlightening; you just have to be sure of the situation you are in when > > > you do. The adage "Don't let the situation control you rather you > > > control > > > the situation" applies here. Driving around in a car while on acid is a > > > bad choice; putting yourself in a safe environment with a designated > > > sober > > > while tripping is a better choice. But most "experiencing" is illegal so > > > that makes it a bad choice in general. > > > > BTW, chemically speaking, mary jane is a hallucinogen. > > > > Prestone > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: CrossBow > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 2:39 PM > > > Subject: Re: Romancing the Stoned > > > > Hahaha! funny think! > > > > I would agree about the gateway theory... but - I have turned down about > > > 100 bales of marijuana approx. in my short life, and was probably > > > enebriated most of that time. Living with musicians and artists will do > > > that. I never did coke, heroin, or anything else. My own curious > > > cocktail > > > of brain chemicals have been adventure enough to keep me barely > > > surviving. > > > I think all those love chemicals are dangerous, and cause more harm than > > > good for some. Imagine overload on the oxytocin! serotonin! whew! Makes > > > it > > > easy to fall in love for some and not so good for others. Evolution is a > > > bitch:) > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 2:29 PM, ornamentalmind > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > Oh, I believe in the gateway theory....and to that end, believe that > > > all milk should be outlawed! :-) > > > > On Nov 11, 12:16 pm, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Big Pharm does not seem to want much investigation into anything that > > > > isn't > > > > synthetically produced does it? Wasn't it the Rockefeller's and the > > > > Carnegie's that started pushing modern medicine/pills that buried the > > > > apothecary? > > > > > My mother grew up on a road called "Hemp Patch", and no, that is not > > > > what is > > > > wrong with me:) I'm with you on decriminalization and I don't believe > > > > in > > > > the > > > > gateway theory either. > > > > > seems like everyone I knew at one time had a pocket full of vicodin! > > > > made > > > > me TOO sleepy.. > > > > > here is a site for that opiate of the masses...luv: > > > > >http://www.oxytocin.org/oxytoc/love-science.html > > > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 1:50 PM, ornamentalmind > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > > > > "…Think it will legalize?" – CB > > > > > > It is quite difficult to tell. Not in the near future would be my > > > > > guess. It is a very complex situation. As a kid, I heard about the > > > > > green gel that could be purchased OTC that was mostly hash. Of > > > > > course, > > > > > Coke used to have real coke in it. The snake oils of the past were > > > > > quite often even more addictive than much on the market today. The > > > > > current 'drugs' that are most addictive fall in the sweetener > > > > > categories. I'm leaving out the obvious things like cigs, alcohol > > > > > and > > > > > the illegal drugs along with the 'legal' prescribed drugs. > > > > > > I would guess that most of you have seen 'Reefer Madness'? Woody > > > > > Harrelson's movie 'Grass' is a great view of the history in the US. > > > > >http://worldfilm.about.com/library/00nowplaying/blgrass.htm > > > > >http://www.sphinxproductions.com/pages/film_grass.html > > > > >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0214730/ > > > > > > He appears in a new movie about the topic too: > > > > >http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417750/ > > > > > > Over the decades, along with a large group of people in the US, my > > > > > view is that at the very least this plant should be decriminalized. > > > > > I > > > > > won't go into all of the great uses for hemp but will say that it > > > > > used > > > > > to be a major part of the US economy and should still be. My dad > > > > > owned > > > > > a house out on the tip of Big Pine Island where there used to be a > > > > > large hemp farm. Just the other day, I had some hempmilk. The > > > > > clothing > > > > > would rival many other companies. Of course, the drug itself would > > > > > fly > > > > > in the face of the FDA and AMA. Since apothecaries were banned in > > > > > the > > > > > US, such things have been regulated by the powerful for money and > > > > > power reasons rather than the public good overall. > > > > > > Even though the government remains a major obstacle, the general > > > > > public is beginning to come around. (read: old farts are dying out) > > > > > > On Nov 11, 8:10 am, CrossBow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Marijuana was listed in the United States Pharmacopoeia from 1850 > > > > > > until 1942 and was prescribed for various conditions including > > > > > > labor > > > > > > pains, nausea, and rheumatism. > > > > > > >http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=40921&source=newsletter > > > > > > > Think it will legalize?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. 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