Agree with you Orn on the Nazi's intentions. I don't think that should stop us from finding cures for Down's and other genetic problems. Ends never justify the means:)
Steve, Not pre-ordained, but a predisposition. Me, I think you have a set of predispositions and limited freewill on top of that. Does that give predictability to our lives? some. There is a lot of room in between for the software codemonkeys in our brains to get creative:) On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi y'all - quote "So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a > particular person under certain conditions would suicide?" > I'm sure the determinist(s) amongst us would view a person's suicide > as pre ordained. What he/they fail to take into account is the > "emergence" which occurs when a complex "software" program running in > the brain produces more than the sum of its parts. This has been > demonstrated in the lab. in the cause of artificial intelligence. I > think the virtually infinite choices of pathways produced in the brain > by this process, is what gives us freewill. I'm sure the religious > think it is a soul. > Correct me if my thoughts are wrong! > > On Dec 27, 10:49 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a particular person > under > > certain conditions would suicide? It could be some psyches will never > hold > > up to much strife. Chemical/Genetic madness throws it all in the > > ditch...because you aren't working with functional levels of sanity, > right? > > How are we to know if that person will be that way? WE CAN'T. > "Murderers" > > with negative intent can manipulate toward that result, but they can't > Know > > for sure. > > > > Personally I think therapy can only go so far to help people...does that > > make me a bad, cynical person? Maybe I think you can't fix some > > people...yet:) Someday could we engineer for a genetic template that > weeds > > out the worst of the known chemical/structural defects? We can look > > for Down's Syndrome, why not the rest? oooooo does that sound like big > > brother? eugenics? too homegenized? > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - I agree with the first part of your post - Zimbabwe is > > > next. > > > > > As for the second - I disagree. "In every instance where the details > > > of a suicide are carefully and > > > meticulously examined it is directly caused by the wrong doing of > > > another or others. There are no suicides" > > > > > Not so. I have the right to die when I choose. I am not required to > > > divulge reasons. There maybe none. I may just have had enough and I'm > > > tired. It will be my decision. > > > In the Madoff case - he bears some guilt for the suicide of others. > > > > > On Dec 26, 3:51 pm, Morpheal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > GUINEA'S JUNTA AS AN EXAMPLE OF CIVILIZATION'S FAILINGS: > > > > > > There has been some debate as to whether the world community should > > > > "talk" to Guinea's junta, after its successful coup, taking over the > > > > government of that nation. It is a strange debate. > > > > > > We must keep in mind that what makes it a strange debate is that > there > > > > is no proper and legal mechanism to overcome and bring down from > power > > > > a truly corrupt and oppressive government. > > > > We do not live in a world where civilization has advanced to the > > > > extent that a people can prepare a case against a government, take it > > > > to a world court, and have the leader or government, removed by the > > > > world community, using legal means. That step in the advance of > > > > civilization might chance to come, someday, but likely not very soon. > > > > There are too many bad leaders and bad governments, which fear that > > > > they too would be removed from power for their actions in regard to > > > > violating their own people's rights and the rights of other nations. > > > > > > Yes, of course, other nations could ask for a removal from power, if > a > > > > leader in the community of nations, was overstepping peaceful bounds, > > > > and violating their fundamental rights. An alternative to war. > > > > Alternatives to war, such as the advent of peace keeping are very > slow > > > > to come into effect. Millennia of acceptance of a constant condition > > > > of incessant conflict stood firmly in the way of establishing peace > > > > keeping efforts. The next step becomes peace enforcement. The > > > > effective policing of the world community to force peaceful > > > > resolution, by legal means, of sources of conflict. The global > village > > > > needs the international policeman, the United Nations soldier, as > much > > > > as any village needs its own local police. The alternative is the > > > > potential for violent chaos where those who are simply attempting to > > > > continue their day to day lives, including non combatants, women, > > > > children, and their livelihoods, are all made victims of violence. > > > > That lesson has been learned relatively late in the history of the > > > > human species. That in itself is a warning as to how the species has > > > > learned to so unquestioningly behave. The foundations upon which > human > > > > civilization is built are somewhat shoddy, crumbling, and uncertain. > > > > If civilization is to remain standing, the edifice needs a lot of > > > > restorative work, with major changes to the foundation of ideas it is > > > > constructed upon. > > > > > > Once we have peace enforcement in place, and nations have to make > > > > their cases against one another by legal means, seeking legal > > > > resolution of their grievances against each other, we begin to build > > > > civilization upon a more solid foundation. Most of the atrocities, > the > > > > mass destruction, the violent confrontations, that have filled the > > > > history books, could be averted by legal resolution of differences, > > > > according to universalizable principles that can be shown to be valid > > > > for all. > > > > > > As to Guinea, we must remember that only a military coup or a > > > > successful civil uprising can do remove what is considered to be a > bad > > > > government or leadership from power. Civil uprisings tend to spill a > > > > lot of blood. Military coups are usually less bloody, and sometimes > > > > they are bloodless. > > > > > > Until the world empowers a legal mechanism for removing a leader or > > > > government that is acting wrongfully we must accept the legitimacy of > > > > coups and revolutions, judging them only by their subsequent actions. > > > > We must keep in mind that bad, usually corrupt, leadership or > > > > governments, can hold power while claiming democracy is in force, > > > > without any chance of being voted out by a popular vote. There are > too > > > > many mechanisms available to assure continuance in power, by means of > > > > terror, and other corrupt practices, for the mere label of democracy > > > > to be an effective antidote for the poison of corruption. > > > > > > THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SUICIDE: > > > > > > There is in fact no such thing as "suicide". That cause of death does > > > > not really exist. As difficult as it might be to comprehend people > > > > never actually simply choose to kill themselves. The label "suicide" > > > > really means only the fact that the murderer or murderers were not > > > > identified and perhaps were unidentifiable. The fact that the > > > > assailants left no actual physical mark upon the corpse does not > > > > lessen their guilt as to the act of murder. The lack of a wound, or > > > > physical evidence of an act of murder, does not repudiate the cause. > > > > In fact psychological and social violence, by others, is often the > > > > direct cause of death. The murderers sometimes take the sadistic > > > > stance of their actions being no more than a big joke, but that > > > > reveals a darker side to the function of humor in society. Humor too > > > > can be used to kill. Unfortunately few really understand the social > > > > and psychological mechanisms involved other than those who have > > > > survived an attempted murder. Most of those are not experts in the > > > > relevant fields of study. Most of their testimony on the subject > would > > > > tend to be disregarded. The only difference ascribed to them, > compared > > > > to the dead victims, is that they were considered to have been "tough > > > > enough" to withstand their assailants. Well, toughening up society to > > > > withstand murderous assailants that it refuses to recognize as such > is > > > > not a very good answer to the problem. It certainly does not make for > > > > a better society. It does make it far more likely that more of the > > > > toughened up will become assailants themselves, and the causes of > > > > further deaths. > > > > > > I recall the case of a young married woman, living in Canada and a > > > > recent European immigrant, married to another immigrant of the same > > > > origins. When he decided he no longer wanted to be in the > > > > relationship, and wanted to pursue other personal social interests, > he > > > > chose to use his social status in the ethnic group and the local > > > > community where they lived to cut her out socially, and to isolate > her > > > > from those who were her friends. She was a kind, empathic, gentle, > > > > woman, devoted and loyal to her marriage. Finding herself thus > > > > socially rejected, essentially isolated, and with the additional > > > > difficulty of some language challenges creating even more of a sense > > > > of isolation, she killed herself. A typical case of murder. The ex > > > > husband who cut her so thoroughly out of all of her social > > > > connections, and completely out of both communities (ethnic and > > > > cultural) where she had any connections with other people and any > > > > chance of any support structures, was never charged with that murder, > > > > and never would be. He was permitted to date and marry another woman, > > > > whom he preferred, and to pursue his own bad habits to excess, > without > > > > consequence. Society approved of his continued enjoyments of life, > his > > > > continued membership in the social groups he maintained his social > > > > status within, and never chastised him for his wrongs and excesses. > To > > > > this day he shows no remorse or recognition of his wrong doing. If > > > > anything the murderer has risen in status in the society in which he > > > > functions. This type of situation is not unusual. > > > > > > In another case one person actually was known to have assisted > another > > > > to suicide in the hopes of gaining some money and possessions from > > > > that the deceased would leave behind. It was found that despite the > > > > physical illness of the victim being a factor, the method of the > > > > murderer was a consistent and well thought out plan how to lead the > > > > victim to death, and how to attempt profit from that eventuality. > > > > Nevertheless it was done in a manner that there was no physical > > > > evidence such that the murderer could be charged with murder. After > > > > all, psychological manipulation, and intention, as such, are > > > > insufficient to pin the murder rap on the murderer no matter how > > > > leading the actions of the murderer in fact were. The murderer was > > > > clearly somewhat psychopathic and ritualized the guilt into a > peculiar > > > > commemorative ritual of the anniversary of the event of death > > > > deliberately taking on and expressing some of the > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
