Ok, maybe with trauma freewill can dominate or cause a turning point? but on an everyday run...I hope our predispositions have the helm. You see, I like how my parents do things and I think they are hardwired to do some of those things. I am a lot like them even though I used to think I was not, and I cannot attribute those likenesses to just environment anymore. I can't believe in a blank slate which you would have to have for total free will. Like an enfant learning language..the brain structure is already there.
Is your problem with free will the perception of loss of control? Personally, I think everyone should be a control freak over "themselves" not others. I am not saying self-control is an illusion but it seem our biology itself argues against total control. Our bio systems run on auto, think breathing, why not much else? Does it really lessen our control or make the things we can control more important? sorry for the ramblings...my clients are on vacation and I missed you guys:) On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi y'all - I think we almost agree - I wouldn't put any limitations on > freewill. > > On Dec 29, 8:53 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > Agree with you Orn on the Nazi's intentions. I don't think that should > stop > > us from finding cures for Down's and other genetic problems. Ends never > > justify the means:) > > > > Steve, Not pre-ordained, but a predisposition. Me, I think you have a > set > > of predispositions and limited freewill on top of that. Does that give > > predictability to our lives? some. There is a lot of room in between for > the > > software codemonkeys in our brains to get creative:) > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - quote "So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a > > > particular person under certain conditions would suicide?" > > > I'm sure the determinist(s) amongst us would view a person's suicide > > > as pre ordained. What he/they fail to take into account is the > > > "emergence" which occurs when a complex "software" program running in > > > the brain produces more than the sum of its parts. This has been > > > demonstrated in the lab. in the cause of artificial intelligence. I > > > think the virtually infinite choices of pathways produced in the brain > > > by this process, is what gives us freewill. I'm sure the religious > > > think it is a soul. > > > Correct me if my thoughts are wrong! > > > > > On Dec 27, 10:49 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a particular person > > > under > > > > certain conditions would suicide? It could be some psyches will > never > > > hold > > > > up to much strife. Chemical/Genetic madness throws it all in the > > > > ditch...because you aren't working with functional levels of sanity, > > > right? > > > > How are we to know if that person will be that way? WE CAN'T. > > > "Murderers" > > > > with negative intent can manipulate toward that result, but they > can't > > > Know > > > > for sure. > > > > > > Personally I think therapy can only go so far to help people...does > that > > > > make me a bad, cynical person? Maybe I think you can't fix some > > > > people...yet:) Someday could we engineer for a genetic template that > > > weeds > > > > out the worst of the known chemical/structural defects? We can look > > > > for Down's Syndrome, why not the rest? oooooo does that sound like > big > > > > brother? eugenics? too homegenized? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I agree with the first part of your post - Zimbabwe is > > > > > next. > > > > > > > As for the second - I disagree. "In every instance where the > details > > > > > of a suicide are carefully and > > > > > meticulously examined it is directly caused by the wrong doing of > > > > > another or others. There are no suicides" > > > > > > > Not so. I have the right to die when I choose. I am not required to > > > > > divulge reasons. There maybe none. I may just have had enough and > I'm > > > > > tired. It will be my decision. > > > > > In the Madoff case - he bears some guilt for the suicide of others. > > > > > > > On Dec 26, 3:51 pm, Morpheal <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > GUINEA'S JUNTA AS AN EXAMPLE OF CIVILIZATION'S FAILINGS: > > > > > > > > There has been some debate as to whether the world community > should > > > > > > "talk" to Guinea's junta, after its successful coup, taking over > the > > > > > > government of that nation. It is a strange debate. > > > > > > > > We must keep in mind that what makes it a strange debate is that > > > there > > > > > > is no proper and legal mechanism to overcome and bring down from > > > power > > > > > > a truly corrupt and oppressive government. > > > > > > We do not live in a world where civilization has advanced to the > > > > > > extent that a people can prepare a case against a government, > take it > > > > > > to a world court, and have the leader or government, removed by > the > > > > > > world community, using legal means. That step in the advance of > > > > > > civilization might chance to come, someday, but likely not very > soon. > > > > > > There are too many bad leaders and bad governments, which fear > that > > > > > > they too would be removed from power for their actions in regard > to > > > > > > violating their own people's rights and the rights of other > nations. > > > > > > > > Yes, of course, other nations could ask for a removal from power, > if > > > a > > > > > > leader in the community of nations, was overstepping peaceful > bounds, > > > > > > and violating their fundamental rights. An alternative to war. > > > > > > Alternatives to war, such as the advent of peace keeping are very > > > slow > > > > > > to come into effect. Millennia of acceptance of a constant > condition > > > > > > of incessant conflict stood firmly in the way of establishing > peace > > > > > > keeping efforts. The next step becomes peace enforcement. The > > > > > > effective policing of the world community to force peaceful > > > > > > resolution, by legal means, of sources of conflict. The global > > > village > > > > > > needs the international policeman, the United Nations soldier, as > > > much > > > > > > as any village needs its own local police. The alternative is the > > > > > > potential for violent chaos where those who are simply attempting > to > > > > > > continue their day to day lives, including non combatants, women, > > > > > > children, and their livelihoods, are all made victims of > violence. > > > > > > That lesson has been learned relatively late in the history of > the > > > > > > human species. That in itself is a warning as to how the species > has > > > > > > learned to so unquestioningly behave. The foundations upon which > > > human > > > > > > civilization is built are somewhat shoddy, crumbling, and > uncertain. > > > > > > If civilization is to remain standing, the edifice needs a lot of > > > > > > restorative work, with major changes to the foundation of ideas > it is > > > > > > constructed upon. > > > > > > > > Once we have peace enforcement in place, and nations have to make > > > > > > their cases against one another by legal means, seeking legal > > > > > > resolution of their grievances against each other, we begin to > build > > > > > > civilization upon a more solid foundation. Most of the > atrocities, > > > the > > > > > > mass destruction, the violent confrontations, that have filled > the > > > > > > history books, could be averted by legal resolution of > differences, > > > > > > according to universalizable principles that can be shown to be > valid > > > > > > for all. > > > > > > > > As to Guinea, we must remember that only a military coup or a > > > > > > successful civil uprising can do remove what is considered to be > a > > > bad > > > > > > government or leadership from power. Civil uprisings tend to > spill a > > > > > > lot of blood. Military coups are usually less bloody, and > sometimes > > > > > > they are bloodless. > > > > > > > > Until the world empowers a legal mechanism for removing a leader > or > > > > > > government that is acting wrongfully we must accept the > legitimacy of > > > > > > coups and revolutions, judging them only by their subsequent > actions. > > > > > > We must keep in mind that bad, usually corrupt, leadership or > > > > > > governments, can hold power while claiming democracy is in force, > > > > > > without any chance of being voted out by a popular vote. There > are > > > too > > > > > > many mechanisms available to assure continuance in power, by > means of > > > > > > terror, and other corrupt practices, for the mere label of > democracy > > > > > > to be an effective antidote for the poison of corruption. > > > > > > > > THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SUICIDE: > > > > > > > > There is in fact no such thing as "suicide". That cause of death > does > > > > > > not really exist. As difficult as it might be to comprehend > people > > > > > > never actually simply choose to kill themselves. The label > "suicide" > > > > > > really means only the fact that the murderer or murderers were > not > > > > > > identified and perhaps were unidentifiable. The fact that the > > > > > > assailants left no actual physical mark upon the corpse does not > > > > > > lessen their guilt as to the act of murder. The lack of a wound, > or > > > > > > physical evidence of an act of murder, does not repudiate the > cause. > > > > > > In fact psychological and social violence, by others, is often > the > > > > > > direct cause of death. The murderers sometimes take the sadistic > > > > > > stance of their actions being no more than a big joke, but that > > > > > > reveals a darker side to the function of humor in society. Humor > too > > > > > > can be used to kill. Unfortunately few really understand the > social > > > > > > and psychological mechanisms involved other than those who have > > > > > > survived an attempted murder. Most of those are not experts in > the > > > > > > relevant fields of study. Most of their testimony on the subject > > > would > > > > > > tend to be disregarded. The only difference ascribed to them, > > > compared > > > > > > to the dead victims, is that they were considered to have been > "tough > > > > > > enough" to withstand their assailants. Well, toughening up > society to > > > > > > withstand murderous assailants that it refuses to recognize as > such > > > is > > > > > > not a very good answer to the problem. It certainly does not make > for > > > > > > a better society. It does make it far more likely that more of > the > > > > > > toughened up will become assailants themselves, and the causes of > > > > > > further deaths. > > > > > > > > I recall the case of a young married woman, living in Canada and > a > > > > > > recent European immigrant, married to another immigrant of the > same > > > > > > origins. When he decided he no longer wanted to be in the > > > > > > relationship, and wanted to pursue other personal social > interests, > > > he > > > > > > chose to use his social status in the ethnic group and the local > > > > > > community where they lived to cut her out socially, and to > isolate > > > her > > > > > > from those who were her friends. She was a kind, empathic, > gentle, > > > > > > woman, devoted and loyal to her marriage. Finding herself thus > > > > > > socially rejected, essentially isolated, and with the additional > > > > > > difficulty of some language challenges creating even more of a > sense > > > > > > of isolation, she killed herself. A typical case of murder. > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
