Hi y'all - I don't see a need for a blank slate to have total free will. Of course, we receive genes and memes which may give us a leaning towards particular objectives. Freewill gives us the choice of how to achieve or reject those objectives and even the ability to change them. I HATE DECEMBER!!!! Sorry for that, my freewill just took a giant leap. I have, this instant, using total control, decided that I shall no longer participate in December. Next year we shall be unavailable.
On Dec 29, 10:44 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > Ok, maybe with trauma freewill can dominate or cause a turning point? but on > an everyday run...I hope our predispositions have the helm. You see, I like > how my parents do things and I think they are hardwired to do some of those > things. I am a lot like them even though I used to think I was not, and I > cannot attribute those likenesses to just environment anymore. I can't > believe in a blank slate which you would have to have for total free will. > Like an enfant learning language..the brain structure is already there. > > Is your problem with free will the perception of loss of > control? Personally, I think everyone should be a control freak over > "themselves" not others. I am not saying self-control is an illusion but it > seem our biology itself argues against total control. Our bio systems run > on auto, think breathing, why not much else? Does it really lessen our > control or make the things we can control more important? > > sorry for the ramblings...my clients are on vacation and I missed you > guys:) > > > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi y'all - I think we almost agree - I wouldn't put any limitations on > > freewill. > > > On Dec 29, 8:53 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Agree with you Orn on the Nazi's intentions. I don't think that should > > stop > > > us from finding cures for Down's and other genetic problems. Ends never > > > justify the means:) > > > > Steve, Not pre-ordained, but a predisposition. Me, I think you have a > > set > > > of predispositions and limited freewill on top of that. Does that give > > > predictability to our lives? some. There is a lot of room in between for > > the > > > software codemonkeys in our brains to get creative:) > > > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi y'all - quote "So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a > > > > particular person under certain conditions would suicide?" > > > > I'm sure the determinist(s) amongst us would view a person's suicide > > > > as pre ordained. What he/they fail to take into account is the > > > > "emergence" which occurs when a complex "software" program running in > > > > the brain produces more than the sum of its parts. This has been > > > > demonstrated in the lab. in the cause of artificial intelligence. I > > > > think the virtually infinite choices of pathways produced in the brain > > > > by this process, is what gives us freewill. I'm sure the religious > > > > think it is a soul. > > > > Correct me if my thoughts are wrong! > > > > > On Dec 27, 10:49 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a particular person > > > > under > > > > > certain conditions would suicide? It could be some psyches will > > never > > > > hold > > > > > up to much strife. Chemical/Genetic madness throws it all in the > > > > > ditch...because you aren't working with functional levels of sanity, > > > > right? > > > > > How are we to know if that person will be that way? WE CAN'T. > > > > "Murderers" > > > > > with negative intent can manipulate toward that result, but they > > can't > > > > Know > > > > > for sure. > > > > > > Personally I think therapy can only go so far to help people...does > > that > > > > > make me a bad, cynical person? Maybe I think you can't fix some > > > > > people...yet:) Someday could we engineer for a genetic template that > > > > weeds > > > > > out the worst of the known chemical/structural defects? We can look > > > > > for Down's Syndrome, why not the rest? oooooo does that sound like > > big > > > > > brother? eugenics? too homegenized? > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi y'all - I agree with the first part of your post - Zimbabwe is > > > > > > next. > > > > > > > As for the second - I disagree. "In every instance where the > > details > > > > > > of a suicide are carefully and > > > > > > meticulously examined it is directly caused by the wrong doing of > > > > > > another or others. There are no suicides" > > > > > > > Not so. I have the right to die when I choose. I am not required to > > > > > > divulge reasons. There maybe none. I may just have had enough and > > I'm > > > > > > tired. It will be my decision. > > > > > > In the Madoff case - he bears some guilt for the suicide of others. > > > > > > > On Dec 26, 3:51 pm, Morpheal <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > GUINEA'S JUNTA AS AN EXAMPLE OF CIVILIZATION'S FAILINGS: > > > > > > > > There has been some debate as to whether the world community > > should > > > > > > > "talk" to Guinea's junta, after its successful coup, taking over > > the > > > > > > > government of that nation. It is a strange debate. > > > > > > > > We must keep in mind that what makes it a strange debate is that > > > > there > > > > > > > is no proper and legal mechanism to overcome and bring down from > > > > power > > > > > > > a truly corrupt and oppressive government. > > > > > > > We do not live in a world where civilization has advanced to the > > > > > > > extent that a people can prepare a case against a government, > > take it > > > > > > > to a world court, and have the leader or government, removed by > > the > > > > > > > world community, using legal means. That step in the advance of > > > > > > > civilization might chance to come, someday, but likely not very > > soon. > > > > > > > There are too many bad leaders and bad governments, which fear > > that > > > > > > > they too would be removed from power for their actions in regard > > to > > > > > > > violating their own people's rights and the rights of other > > nations. > > > > > > > > Yes, of course, other nations could ask for a removal from power, > > if > > > > a > > > > > > > leader in the community of nations, was overstepping peaceful > > bounds, > > > > > > > and violating their fundamental rights. An alternative to war. > > > > > > > Alternatives to war, such as the advent of peace keeping are very > > > > slow > > > > > > > to come into effect. Millennia of acceptance of a constant > > condition > > > > > > > of incessant conflict stood firmly in the way of establishing > > peace > > > > > > > keeping efforts. The next step becomes peace enforcement. The > > > > > > > effective policing of the world community to force peaceful > > > > > > > resolution, by legal means, of sources of conflict. The global > > > > village > > > > > > > needs the international policeman, the United Nations soldier, as > > > > much > > > > > > > as any village needs its own local police. The alternative is the > > > > > > > potential for violent chaos where those who are simply attempting > > to > > > > > > > continue their day to day lives, including non combatants, women, > > > > > > > children, and their livelihoods, are all made victims of > > violence. > > > > > > > That lesson has been learned relatively late in the history of > > the > > > > > > > human species. That in itself is a warning as to how the species > > has > > > > > > > learned to so unquestioningly behave. The foundations upon which > > > > human > > > > > > > civilization is built are somewhat shoddy, crumbling, and > > uncertain. > > > > > > > If civilization is to remain standing, the edifice needs a lot of > > > > > > > restorative work, with major changes to the foundation of ideas > > it is > > > > > > > constructed upon. > > > > > > > > Once we have peace enforcement in place, and nations have to make > > > > > > > their cases against one another by legal means, seeking legal > > > > > > > resolution of their grievances against each other, we begin to > > build > > > > > > > civilization upon a more solid foundation. Most of the > > atrocities, > > > > the > > > > > > > mass destruction, the violent confrontations, that have filled > > the > > > > > > > history books, could be averted by legal resolution of > > differences, > > > > > > > according to universalizable principles that can be shown to be > > valid > > > > > > > for all. > > > > > > > > As to Guinea, we must remember that only a military coup or a > > > > > > > successful civil uprising can do remove what is considered to be > > a > > > > bad > > > > > > > government or leadership from power. Civil uprisings tend to > > spill a > > > > > > > lot of blood. Military coups are usually less bloody, and > > sometimes > > > > > > > they are bloodless. > > > > > > > > Until the world empowers a legal mechanism for removing a leader > > or > > > > > > > government that is acting wrongfully we must accept the > > legitimacy of > > > > > > > coups and revolutions, judging them only by their subsequent > > actions. > > > > > > > We must keep in mind that bad, usually corrupt, leadership or > > > > > > > governments, can hold power while claiming democracy is in force, > > > > > > > without any chance of being voted out by a popular vote. There > > are > > > > too > > > > > > > many mechanisms available to assure continuance in power, by > > means of > > > > > > > terror, and other corrupt practices, for the mere label of > > democracy > > > > > > > to be an effective antidote for the poison of corruption. > > > > > > > > THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SUICIDE: > > > > > > > > There is in fact no such thing as "suicide". That cause of death > > does > > > > > > > not really exist. As difficult as it might be to comprehend > > people > > > > > > > never actually simply choose to kill themselves. The label > > "suicide" > > > > > > > really means only the fact that the murderer or murderers were > > not > > > > > > > identified and perhaps were unidentifiable. The fact that the > > > > > > > assailants left no actual physical mark upon the corpse does not > > > > > > > lessen their guilt as to the act of murder. The lack of a wound, > > or > > > > > > > physical evidence of an act of murder, does not repudiate the > > cause. > > > > > > > In fact psychological and social violence, by others, is often > > the > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
