btw, just finished Sun Tzu's Art of War last night. Wu Ch'i has a similar but more situational section in the back. Loved it, didnt learn anything new, but was amazed how it was arranged as a manual. It is obviously a powerful tool anyone in command should read. Made me want to play chess.
Obviously Bush has never cracked it at all:) On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 10:23 PM, ornamentalmind <[email protected]>wrote: > > I have heard the story about Tai Chi that many adapt to their own form > of martial art and that is: Many years ago, the Emperor of China would > hold open contests for all comers and all forms of fighting. Whoever > was left would run his palace guard. Tai Chi was what was left. > > Such truth and/or myth aside, even though with a little effort I > couldn't find the film online of the younger Tai Chi boxer who had > just finished undefeated after days of martial art contests. Chen Man > Ching had told the student to not enter the contest. (In fact, in > Watson's school, none of us were allowed to enter contests, even after > decades of study.) Anyway, for having disregarded his teacher's > admonition, Chen Man Ching, when 'attacked' by the younger student, > didn't even let the student engage him. With a very small flick of his > left wrist, the student went flying away, not able to regain his > footing for about 20 feet or more. (backward) I have seen the film > over and over…it is amazing. And, an example why few will ever see > actual tai chi. > > > On Jan 8, 6:26 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Jan 7, 9:11 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > This said, even Chen Man Ching himself found > > > > > himself in a situation where he had to use his art. A very large > > > person just picked him up once and was going to throw him down. On the > > > way up, with some very fast footwork, Chen Man Ching did a lot of > > > damage to the person so was then let down easily. > > > > Orn, Crossbow and anyone else reading this. > > > > I just want to make sure that the reader doesn't mistake the uprooting > > of tai chi for grabbing someone and picking them up as the assailant > > did to Cheng Man Ching. First of all the "pure and correct" uproot is > > a training exercise. The uproot can be seamlessly melded into a > > projection technique, which can propel the airborne person into a wall > > or other object. Tai chi has many other attack methods besides > > bouncing someone off the wall. Uprooting need not precede most of > > these other types of attacks. > > > > It is not worth explaining exactly how uprooting works unless someone > > can feel it. In brief let me say that it is nothing like what most > > people think of when they think of wrestling. To some it seems to some > > to defy the laws of physics because the contact between the persons is > > so light. It does not defy any laws of physics since living beings > > have a lot of momentum that they are not typically aware of. Uprooting > > relies on the relative tension levels between the uprooter and the > > uprooted in order to manipulate the others momentum. If the person you > > are trying to uproot is less tense than you are in the moment that you > > are trying to uproot them, it will fail. It also relies on the > > automatic reaction of the uprooted to a very slight and precisely > > directed downward pressure that seamlessly occurs before the uproot. > > The founder of Yang style tai chi is reported to have said that there > > are three types of men that he could not beat, men made of wood, men > > made of brass, and men made of iron. Yes, his great technique would > > not work against an unresponsive statue. But when some one is not > > moving they are not a threat at the moment and they can also be hit at > > will, if you are sure that they are about to attack. > > > > On Jan 7, 9:11 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > For those who want more than theory about Tai Chi, although the > > > YouTube videos are not nearly as clear as the original films, which I > > > watched many times, they may give you a sense of what we are talking > > > about more. > > > This is of one of the masters we have been talking about and the > > > teacher of Patrick Watson who was asked to start the school I've been > > > in since the early 70s. Some of the students were able to have studied > > > with Chen Man Ching himself. Watson had the original films and even > > > more than what this set of videos shows. He kept them close yet, they > > > were taken from his apartment in NYC late in his life. The 3rd person > > > in this video is Smith, who Ish has mentioned. He is also shown doing > > > the Sword Form later on. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2mh4&feature=PlayList&p=2814CFE... > > > > > While perhaps a little too mystical for some here, to me, rather than > > > learning how to fight, the best Tai Chi, in my view, is that which > > > never has to be used. This said, even Chen Man Ching himself found > > > himself in a situation where he had to use his art. A very large > > > person just picked him up once and was going to throw him down. On the > > > way up, with some very fast footwork, Chen Man Ching did a lot of > > > damage to the person so was then let down easily. > > > In NYC, there were many times when my intuition was to change routs. > > > Some of the time, I found out why. > > > As to health, Chen Man Ching's autobiography is testament to how well > > > it can work. And, having known Patrick for many years, I guess I don't > > > see how one can say he was in any way unhealthy. But, perhaps that is > > > bias. I know that his hands felt like cotton, if like anything and one > > > moment we were engaged, the next moment I was in the air and then hit > > > the wall on the fly. Overall, it did help the inner organs. > > > > > Also, from the more mystical lore, it is said that if you attack with > > > the intention to kill, this energy will be returned and you will find > > > out you have killed yourself. > > > > > On Jan 7, 5:48 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Orn, > > > > > > I am writing much of this out for the benefit of others. Your tai chi > > > > style of writing, drawing me out is good, but other will not > > > > understand much and at the moment I want them too. > > > > > > In my opinion, the bottom line with tai chi is that it is an > empiracle > > > > art. I had to reread and rethink what you said about that particlar > > > > women who cannot be "pushed" your qoutes. First of all she is short, > > > > which helps when no no striking is involved. Secondly you said that > no > > > > one could "push" (your quotes) her. But if you are making a judgemnt > > > > as to who is better at push hands than it would seem that she can > also > > > > move every one else, at least occaisionally. If she can and also > > > > cannot be moved then I would judge her the best in your circle. > > > > > > William Chen claims to have only practiced neutralization for about > > > > his first year. It was only later that he learned to effortlessly > lift > > > > others straight up off the floor, both feet leaving the ground and > > > > using only light contact with his hands (I could barely feel them > when > > > > ever he did this to me). It is this skill that that is hard to > develop > > > > for all but seems to be harder for women to develop, in my > experience, > > > > then men. That is the style of uprooting that CMC taught. Making > > > > others stumble backwards, fall forwards or to the sides, is also > > > > useful, for fighting, but according to CMC not the correct uproot. > > > > > > As for the "real" Tai Chi, I would suggest you look for a top > > > > certified student on Ma Yueh Liang. CMC was one of the best, best > > > > nearly every one who experienced both agreed the Ma was the best in > > > > the world at the time and had a much more complete system. He has top > > > > students in China who have surpassed his level and some very good > ones > > > > in the USA. > > > > > > As far as fighting goes, as far as I know Ma never really showed it > or > > > > taught it. If one is really a master of the tai chi training methods > > > > then it doesn't take long to become a great fighter, whether for > sport > > > > ot for self defense. The later (self defense) is what I consider > > > > "real" fighting. CMC showed it to Robert Smith or so Smith writes in > > > > his chapter on CMC in his book "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods. > > > > In that chapter there is a story of CMC also using push hands for > > > > fighting. CMC knocks out a mantis style boxer by bouncing him of the > > > > wall. However it is easy to beat an externalist with push hands, if > > > > you also know how to fight for real which invlolves being able to > > > > slip, perry and absord strikes. On the bottom of 42 and top of page > 43 > > > > CMC demonstrates real fighting to Robert Smith. Their are only two > > > > people I know of who are real masters and also teach real self > defense > > > > fighting to their students. William C. C. Chen is NOT one of them. He > > > > teaches sport fighting. One of these masters is extremelly soft, > > > > except when he hits. His strikes are internal though. If he went > after > > > > me for real, he would beat or even kill me within a seconds. I heard > > > > the other one is very soft too, but I have never met him. I have > > > > played with one of his students and from that I have come to the > > > > conclusion that this other master is also a devastating fighter. > > > > > > Push hands is a training method and an important one, but it is often > > > > way over emphasized for fighting. Push hands, done properly, is > > > > actually more important for health than for fighting, but it is hard > > > > perhaps impossible to do tai chi fighting without push hands. It is > > > > the easiast way to learn to put Peng Lu Ji and An on a circle. But > the > > > > most important thing is that it is all but impossible to correct the > > > > form without push hands. The form, done well, is very good for > health. > > > > However, it is not a cure all as demonstrated by Patrick Watson, > > > > Stanley Israel, Yang Cheng Fu and others. > > > > > > judging push hands as who is the best then "pushing s > > > > > > On Jan 6, 11:04 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I don't insist. It is all up to you. Overall, I talk about the real > > > > > Tai Chi, not the external one. > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 7:41 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Orn, > > > > > > > > Women have a lower center of gravity and less muscle excess > muscle > > > > > > tension. However, I don't know if they would be the best in push > hands > > > > > > since it is a training method or sport that favors certain > aspects of > > > > > > the male mind. I'd have to write more than I'd like to write now > to > > > > > > really explain it. If you insist I'll try later. When non > sportive > > > > > > striking is thrown into the mix (chops, eye gouges, palm strikes, > > > > > > groin kicks, shin kicks and much much more) then the sensitvity > that > > > > > > women have along with the lower center for good balance makes > them get > > > > > > good real fast. Men typically surpase women, because the women > rarely > > > > > > stay at it for years and years. In external arts the men are > generally > > > > > > much better than the women, but what they are doing is not nearly > so > > > > > > good for real self defense. > > > > > > > > As far as Patrick Watson goes, he may have been the only American > > > > > > student of Cheng Man Ching who was told to open a school. Then > again > > > > > > he may not have been. I don't know for sure. I have heard that he > was > > > > > > best American student but also that he didn't get along with the > other > > > > > > top students. Whose fault that was, I can only guess. As far aa > all of > > > > > > the Students goes, Huang > > > > ... > > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
