Orn, Crossbow, and anyone else who happens to read this, I one hundred percent agree with you Orn; a fight avoided is better than a fight won. Either the fight is some stupid pissing contest that is crazy to risk hurting someone and/or getting hurt over or it's the real thing, which could easily get you killed (think one or more psychopathic criminals with weapons, probably more than one). I also agree that awareness and trusting your intuition is the first line of self-defense. Gavin DeBecker wrote an excellent book on the subject called, "The Gift of Fear". With awareness and intuition nearly all trouble can be avoided.
That said, there are two places where you can find out what Chen Man Ching would do in a serious situation. The first one I mentioned was Robert Smith's book "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods". Beginning on the bottom of page 42 and continuing on to page 43, Smith, a CIA agent at the time, says that without using power in his strikes Cheng Man Ching attack him and hit in the throat mid section and the legs many times, very fast and he was unable to stop even one strike. If Cheng had put power in the strikes Smith would have been killed or crippled. Throat strikes with a huge amount of power would do that; the pushing is real and all that power can be made short and sharp). The second place where you can see what Cheng can do for real is on the video clip. There is a short burst of a few fast but powerless strikes beginning at about the 15 seconds into the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HClR6elwak4 For those who think that tai chi is not real but think that something like Ultimate Fighting is, let me say this; top sportive tai chi fighters do extremely well in a sport called San Shou. This sport allows punching, kicking and stand up grappling. It is like Ultimate Fighting without the ground fighting. Not long ago, a top San Shou fighter named Cung Le, who was not a tai chi man, decided to try Ultimate Fighting/Mixed Martial Arts. His record in it now stands at 6 and 0 all by knock out. One of the people he defeated was the legendary Frank Shamrock who was still at the top of his game. That said, tai chi is much easier to use for self defense than most other martial arts. However, it does take a little but of imagination to go from the training exercises to the real thing. On Jan 7, 9:11 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > For those who want more than theory about Tai Chi, although the > YouTube videos are not nearly as clear as the original films, which I > watched many times, they may give you a sense of what we are talking > about more. > This is of one of the masters we have been talking about and the > teacher of Patrick Watson who was asked to start the school I’ve been > in since the early 70s. Some of the students were able to have studied > with Chen Man Ching himself. Watson had the original films and even > more than what this set of videos shows. He kept them close yet, they > were taken from his apartment in NYC late in his life. The 3rd person > in this video is Smith, who Ish has mentioned. He is also shown doing > the Sword Form later > on.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4603FB2mh4&feature=PlayList&p=2814CFE... > > While perhaps a little too mystical for some here, to me, rather than > learning how to fight, the best Tai Chi, in my view, is that which > never has to be used. This said, even Chen Man Ching himself found > himself in a situation where he had to use his art. A very large > person just picked him up once and was going to throw him down. On the > way up, with some very fast footwork, Chen Man Ching did a lot of > damage to the person so was then let down easily. > In NYC, there were many times when my intuition was to change routs. > Some of the time, I found out why. > As to health, Chen Man Ching’s autobiography is testament to how well > it can work. And, having known Patrick for many years, I guess I don’t > see how one can say he was in any way unhealthy. But, perhaps that is > bias. I know that his hands felt like cotton, if like anything and one > moment we were engaged, the next moment I was in the air and then hit > the wall on the fly. Overall, it did help the inner organs. > > Also, from the more mystical lore, it is said that if you attack with > the intention to kill, this energy will be returned and you will find > out you have killed yourself. > > On Jan 7, 5:48 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Orn, > > > I am writing much of this out for the benefit of others. Your tai chi > > style of writing, drawing me out is good, but other will not > > understand much and at the moment I want them too. > > > In my opinion, the bottom line with tai chi is that it is an empiracle > > art. I had to reread and rethink what you said about that particlar > > women who cannot be "pushed" your qoutes. First of all she is short, > > which helps when no no striking is involved. Secondly you said that no > > one could "push" (your quotes) her. But if you are making a judgemnt > > as to who is better at push hands than it would seem that she can also > > move every one else, at least occaisionally. If she can and also > > cannot be moved then I would judge her the best in your circle. > > > William Chen claims to have only practiced neutralization for about > > his first year. It was only later that he learned to effortlessly lift > > others straight up off the floor, both feet leaving the ground and > > using only light contact with his hands (I could barely feel them when > > ever he did this to me). It is this skill that that is hard to develop > > for all but seems to be harder for women to develop, in my experience, > > then men. That is the style of uprooting that CMC taught. Making > > others stumble backwards, fall forwards or to the sides, is also > > useful, for fighting, but according to CMC not the correct uproot. > > > As for the "real" Tai Chi, I would suggest you look for a top > > certified student on Ma Yueh Liang. CMC was one of the best, best > > nearly every one who experienced both agreed the Ma was the best in > > the world at the time and had a much more complete system. He has top > > students in China who have surpassed his level and some very good ones > > in the USA. > > > As far as fighting goes, as far as I know Ma never really showed it or > > taught it. If one is really a master of the tai chi training methods > > then it doesn't take long to become a great fighter, whether for sport > > ot for self defense. The later (self defense) is what I consider > > "real" fighting. CMC showed it to Robert Smith or so Smith writes in > > his chapter on CMC in his book "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods. > > In that chapter there is a story of CMC also using push hands for > > fighting. CMC knocks out a mantis style boxer by bouncing him of the > > wall. However it is easy to beat an externalist with push hands, if > > you also know how to fight for real which invlolves being able to > > slip, perry and absord strikes. On the bottom of 42 and top of page 43 > > CMC demonstrates real fighting to Robert Smith. Their are only two > > people I know of who are real masters and also teach real self defense > > fighting to their students. William C. C. Chen is NOT one of them. He > > teaches sport fighting. One of these masters is extremelly soft, > > except when he hits. His strikes are internal though. If he went after > > me for real, he would beat or even kill me within a seconds. I heard > > the other one is very soft too, but I have never met him. I have > > played with one of his students and from that I have come to the > > conclusion that this other master is also a devastating fighter. > > > Push hands is a training method and an important one, but it is often > > way over emphasized for fighting. Push hands, done properly, is > > actually more important for health than for fighting, but it is hard > > perhaps impossible to do tai chi fighting without push hands. It is > > the easiast way to learn to put Peng Lu Ji and An on a circle. But the > > most important thing is that it is all but impossible to correct the > > form without push hands. The form, done well, is very good for health. > > However, it is not a cure all as demonstrated by Patrick Watson, > > Stanley Israel, Yang Cheng Fu and others. > > > judging push hands as who is the best then "pushing s > > > On Jan 6, 11:04 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I don't insist. It is all up to you. Overall, I talk about the real > > > Tai Chi, not the external one. > > > > On Jan 6, 7:41 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Orn, > > > > > Women have a lower center of gravity and less muscle excess muscle > > > > tension. However, I don't know if they would be the best in push hands > > > > since it is a training method or sport that favors certain aspects of > > > > the male mind. I'd have to write more than I'd like to write now to > > > > really explain it. If you insist I'll try later. When non sportive > > > > striking is thrown into the mix (chops, eye gouges, palm strikes, > > > > groin kicks, shin kicks and much much more) then the sensitvity that > > > > women have along with the lower center for good balance makes them get > > > > good real fast. Men typically surpase women, because the women rarely > > > > stay at it for years and years. In external arts the men are generally > > > > much better than the women, but what they are doing is not nearly so > > > > good for real self defense. > > > > > As far as Patrick Watson goes, he may have been the only American > > > > student of Cheng Man Ching who was told to open a school. Then again > > > > he may not have been. I don't know for sure. I have heard that he was > > > > best American student but also that he didn't get along with the other > > > > top students. Whose fault that was, I can only guess. As far aa all of > > > > the Students goes, Huang Xing Xian was considered the best by CMC. I > > > > think William Chen was considered the second best. I heard that when > > > > Patrick Watson was asked about William Chen he admited that William > > > > was better. However, I heard that Patrick Watson did claim that he was > > > > CMC's top student without qualifying it by saying top American > > > > student. > > > > > The Cheng Man Ching school was eventually handed down to Stanley > > > > Israel who was highly skilled even though his method was too forceful > > > > for my taste. The people running it before Stanley were not nearly as > > > > good. Stanley also once tied for first in the U S Judo Championships > > > > and was a prison guard. He was also obese like Patrick and also died > > > > relatively young. So much fo tryong to imitate Yang Cheng Fu, who was > > > > obese and also died young. My combat tai chi teacher, who is an > > > > amazing fighter and a retired police officer is also obese, and his > > > > health is not good. No matter he is extremelly fast sensitive and can > > > > hit very hard from all sorts of weird angles. > > > > > On Jan 6, 8:34 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > "... women are pound for pound much better fighters than men..." - Ish > > > > > > Ish, I fully agree! The top Tai Chi student in our School is a very > > > > > very short and now very old woman. No one seems to be able to 'push' > > > > > her.... Many of the other top students are women too. The fact is that > > > > > most women don't have to empty so much muscle bound tension in their > > > > > bodies as most men do. > > > > > > On Jan 6, 4:07 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I think that the reason for the foot bindings was to disable woman > > > > > > so > > > > > > they could not fight or run away. In real fighting (not > > > > > > sportfighting, > > > > > > Bruce Lee move, fancy martial arts or whatever) women are pound for > > > > > > pound much better fighters than men. Sad to say most of them never > > > > > > learned how to fight in a way suited to their natural attributes. > > > > > > Also, many women will not fight unless their children are > > > > > > threatened. > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2:04 pm, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ah, that old crap about small feet is bunk! Your thinking about > > > > > > > when they > > > > > > > used to mutilate their feet with wrappings. Now, I have small > > > > > > > feet, and > > > > > > > they are blue!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. 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