Frankly I don't think provenance is much of a concern, I think the only thing that truly matters is if it is genuine or not....I couldn't tell you where I got 95 percent of my posters...and that's including my long sought-after holy grail - all I know it came from some guy in California....I have bought on ebay, traded, purchased from small printed ads in MCW, the internet, brick and mortar stores, my, god my head hurts just trying to think where my last poster came from. When it comes down to it, what matters more, did it come from Ron or Todd or Joe Schmoe or is it the real McCoy? I mean I have a lobby card that was in the Ramone collection and really what proof do I have of that besides the auction house told me it was...big deal I wanted the card, it's genuine, that's all I care about, the rest is, in my opinion hearsay.
If you bought a piece at auction and it turns out to be fake, you deal with the auction house and that's it, then you keep your eyes open a little bit wider the next time you seek a piece to add to your collection. ________________________________ From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@listserv.american.edu] On Behalf Of Steven F. Poole Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:01 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance............... Bruce and all- When its all said and done, I guess the bottom line of the whole auction format does not allow for ME the buyer to know who YOU the consignor are (unless explicitely stated in the auction description who the consignor is). Here was my scenaro in a nutshell: I made a purchase of a Universal lobby card in a major auction at about a high bid of $1000 last spring ('09). I know that that dollar amount in value is peanuts compared to some other Universal pieces but after the fake Universal scandal broke, I got a little bit concerned about the card I had from the auction from just a few months ago and called the auction house to ask where it came from. I was simply told it was from a "reputable collector" and nothing more would be revealed by the auction house rep. in the conversation. So, I have no knowledge of where this card came from except the auction house sold it to me. For those who might be proactive in the fallout of this whole fake issue, this is a real dead end in trying to maintain as certain as humanly possible authenticity of an item purchased. Another example.....Recently I had a call from an individual with whom I had been involved in a trade for some material. The piece that this individual had was a horror piece that they had a question about concerning authenticity. We went back to the person that I had received it from and they were able to verify where they had purchased it from earlier which satisfied my trading partner who is the current owner of the piece. Total disclosure and following the links of the chain of ownership helped to calm the concerns of the person who currently owns the piece. I guess that is what I was seeking in my concerns regarding the item that I had "won" from the auction house. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Hershenson <mailto:brucehershen...@gmail.com> To: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net> Cc: MoPo-L@listserv.american.edu Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:23 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance............... Steven You have asked this in kind of a confusing way, but I think I am getting your point. 1) Even though they won't implicitly admit it (for unfathomable reasons) it is clear that several leading auctions and dealers sold these fakes (presumedly unknowing) as originals, and at least one indirectly states they have refunded the buyers they inadvertantly duped. 2) They surely have a record of who consigned what, so they know exactly who consigned each and every fake they have refunded. 3) Therefore, they really absolutely SHOULD contact the buyers of any pieces that were also consigned by those same individuals, to alert the buyers that they MAY have purchased a fake, and that they should have their purchased checked by a talented professional, especially if they have any doubts themselves. Could some of the consignors of the fakes have acquired them second hand or third hand and have only consigned the one fake, and all other items from that consignor were real? Sure, but until the fakes consigned by those individuals are identified, extra precautions must be taken, or this disease will continue to plague our hobby for years to come, as these so-called "buried" fakes keep re-surfacing. I take Steven's point to be that the auctions should be studying their consignment records and notifiying buyers of items consigned by those who also consigned fakes, or at least letting them know that the item came from a consignor who also consigned one or more known fakes if the purchaser inquires, as Steven did (of course, they don't have to name the consignor, just reveal the vital info that they also consigned one or more known fakes). Do I think the auction houses and dealers who sold fakes will do this? I don't know, but I do know that this is a great opportunity for them to step up to the plate and show exactl why they deserve those hefty 20% buyers premiums all these years, and to take a real leadership role in removing this awful taint from our hobby. Bruce On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Steven F. Poole <stand...@ll.net> wrote: James- Its not that I would want to go to the consignor to ask for money back.....what I really would like to know on a questionable item is the "chain" that it came from. If one of the "alleged masterminds" of the Universal Horror Scandal was the consignor, I would think that is cause for alarm. Also, if it came from someone who is reputable, that would be a reassurance (unless, of course, the donsignor obtained it from one of the "alleged masterminds"). Guess there really is no way to be assured on this issue except having someone you trust examine it. It just seems the auction houses / dealers have the upper hand in this as they hold the key to at least begin a provenance check and the buyer does not have the key to fit that lock. ----- Original Message ----- From: James Richard <mailto:jrl...@mediabearonline.com> To: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net> Cc: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:52 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance............... Steven, Yes. But even if the seller/auction house did reveal the consigner or name-provenance of the item you purchased, for practical purposes your only recourse if you are unhappy with the item is to return it to the seller/auction house you bought it from and get your money back from them. The fact that the seller/auction house said they had the item on consignment from say, Brad Pitt, does not really entitle you to go to directly to Brad Pitt and ask for your money back. Brad did not sell the item to you -- the seller/auction house did. That's the whole point of consigning something to a seller or auction house. Sure, if you wanted to pay for it, a lawyer could probably make the argument that by consigning the item to the seller/auction house that Brad Pitt was somehow responsible in a vague kind of "implied warranty" fashion -- some lawyers will argue any position no matter how tenuous -- but I wouldn't count on winning that one in court. Selling individual used collectible items "as is" (which is essentially what we doing here) is not the same thing as the Ford Motor Company manufacturing millions of automobiles and selling them through a network on independent franchised dealerships. In lieu of some kind of convincing third-party authentication opinion certificate, I think you will start seeing sellers and auction houses putting aside this traditional "confidentiality" business and clearly stating provenances and consigners on the higher-priced items. In other fields of collecting, such as comic books, if an item is from a well-known collector's horde, that provenance is almost always mentioned by the seller -- it adds cachet to the item and will often significantly increase its selling price. Personally, I never really did understand why "consigner confidentiality" was such a big deal in the movie poster field, but Bruce probably has a viable theory that ties in with the push 'em ups concept... :) -- JR Steven F. Poole wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net> To: Richard Halegua Comic Art & Movie Posters <mailto:sa...@comic-art.com> Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [MOPO] Provenance............... Actually, I don't own a SON OF DRACULA, just using that as an illustration........in my case its another card from another Universal film and Heritage is not the auction house/dealer in my case. So, if provenance would not / cannot be disclosed, a dealer or auction house seems to be putting themselves in the position of taking in back in a No Questions Asked policy if I happen to suspect it. I would not be able to go any further back than where I got it from and they would have to honor my feeling about it? ________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/> Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.10/2429 - Release Date: 10/11/09 18:34:00 Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com <http://www.filmfan.com/> ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. ________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.10/2429 - Release Date: 10/11/09 18:34:00 Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
