Frankly I don't think provenance is much of a concern, I think the
only thing that truly matters is if it is genuine or not....I couldn't
tell you where I got 95 percent of my posters...and that's including
my long sought-after holy grail - all I know it came from some guy in
California....I have bought on ebay, traded, purchased from small
printed ads in MCW, the internet, brick and mortar stores, my, god my
head hurts just trying to think where my last poster came from. When
it comes down to it, what matters more, did it come from Ron or Todd
or Joe Schmoe or is it the real McCoy? I mean I have a lobby card
that was in the Ramone collection and really what proof do I have of
that besides the auction house told me it was...big deal I wanted the
card, it's genuine, that's all I care about, the rest is, in my
opinion hearsay.
If you bought a piece at auction and it turns out to be fake, you deal
with the auction house and that's it, then you keep your eyes open a
little bit wider the next time you seek a piece to add to your
collection.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@listserv.american.edu] On Behalf Of
Steven F. Poole
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 1:01 PM
To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Bruce and all-
When its all said and done, I guess the bottom line of the whole
auction format does not allow for ME the buyer to know who YOU the
consignor are (unless explicitely stated in the auction description
who the consignor is).
Here was my scenaro in a nutshell: I made a purchase of a
Universal lobby card in a major auction at about a high bid of $1000
last spring ('09). I know that that dollar amount in value is
peanuts compared to some other Universal pieces but after the fake
Universal scandal broke, I got a little bit concerned about the card I
had from the auction from just a few months ago and called the auction
house to ask where it came from. I was simply told it was from a
"reputable collector" and nothing more would be revealed by the
auction house rep. in the conversation. So, I have no knowledge of
where this card came from except the auction house sold it to me.
For those who might be proactive in the fallout of this whole fake
issue, this is a real dead end in trying to maintain as certain as
humanly possible authenticity of an item purchased.
Another example.....Recently I had a call from an individual with
whom I had been involved in a trade for some material. The piece
that this individual had was a horror piece that they had a question
about concerning authenticity. We went back to the person that I had
received it from and they were able to verify where they had purchased
it from earlier which satisfied my trading partner who is the current
owner of the piece. Total disclosure and following the links of the
chain of ownership helped to calm the concerns of the person who
currently owns the piece.
I guess that is what I was seeking in my concerns regarding the item
that I had "won" from the auction house.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hershenson <mailto:brucehershen...@gmail.com>
To: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net>
Cc: MoPo-L@listserv.american.edu
<mailto:MoPo-L@listserv.american.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven
You have asked this in kind of a confusing way, but I think I am
getting your point.
1) Even though they won't implicitly admit it (for unfathomable
reasons) it is clear that several leading auctions and dealers
sold these fakes (presumedly unknowing) as originals, and at least
one indirectly states they have refunded the buyers they
inadvertantly duped.
2) They surely have a record of who consigned what, so they know
exactly who consigned each and every fake they have refunded.
3) Therefore, they really absolutely SHOULD contact the buyers of
any pieces that were also consigned by those same individuals, to
alert the buyers that they MAY have purchased a fake, and that
they should have their purchased checked by a talented
professional, especially if they have any doubts themselves.
Could some of the consignors of the fakes have acquired them
second hand or third hand and have only consigned the one fake,
and all other items from that consignor were real? Sure, but until
the fakes consigned by those individuals are identified, extra
precautions must be taken, or this disease will continue to plague
our hobby for years to come, as these so-called "buried" fakes
keep re-surfacing.
I take Steven's point to be that the auctions should be studying
their consignment records and notifiying buyers of items consigned
by those who also consigned fakes, or at least letting them know
that the item came from a consignor who also consigned one or more
known fakes if the purchaser inquires, as Steven did (of course,
they don't have to name the consignor, just reveal the vital info
that they also consigned one or more known fakes).
Do I think the auction houses and dealers who sold fakes will do
this? I don't know, but I do know that this is a great opportunity
for them to step up to the plate and show exactl why they deserve
those hefty 20% buyers premiums all these years, and to take a
real leadership role in removing this awful taint from our hobby.
Bruce
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Steven F. Poole <stand...@ll.net
<mailto:stand...@ll.net>> wrote:
James-
Its not that I would want to go to the consignor to ask for
money back.....what I really would like to know on a questionable
item is the "chain" that it came from. If one of the "alleged
masterminds" of the Universal Horror Scandal was the consignor, I
would think that is cause for alarm. Also, if it came from
someone who is reputable, that would be a reassurance (unless, of
course, the donsignor obtained it from one of the "alleged
masterminds").
Guess there really is no way to be assured on this issue except
having someone you trust examine it. It just seems the auction
houses / dealers have the upper hand in this as they hold the key
to at least begin a provenance check and the buyer does not have
the key to fit that lock.
----- Original Message -----
From: James Richard <mailto:jrl...@mediabearonline.com>
To: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net>
Cc: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU
<mailto:MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Fw: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Steven,
Yes. But even if the seller/auction house did reveal the
consigner or name-provenance of the item you purchased, for
practical purposes your only recourse if you are unhappy with
the item is to return it to the seller/auction house you
bought it from and get your money back from them. The fact
that the seller/auction house said they had the item on
consignment from say, Brad Pitt, does not really entitle you
to go to directly to Brad Pitt and ask for your money back.
Brad did not sell the item to you -- the seller/auction house
did. That's the whole point of consigning something to a
seller or auction house.
Sure, if you wanted to pay for it, a lawyer could probably
make the argument that by consigning the item to the
seller/auction house that Brad Pitt was somehow responsible in
a vague kind of "implied warranty" fashion -- some lawyers
will argue any position no matter how tenuous -- but I
wouldn't count on winning that one in court. Selling
individual used collectible items "as is" (which is
essentially what we doing here) is not the same thing as the
Ford Motor Company manufacturing millions of automobiles and
selling them through a network on independent franchised
dealerships.
In lieu of some kind of convincing third-party authentication
opinion certificate, I think you will start seeing sellers and
auction houses putting aside this traditional
"confidentiality" business and clearly stating provenances and
consigners on the higher-priced items. In other fields of
collecting, such as comic books, if an item is from a
well-known collector's horde, that provenance is almost always
mentioned by the seller -- it adds cachet to the item and will
often significantly increase its selling price.
Personally, I never really did understand why "consigner
confidentiality" was such a big deal in the movie poster
field, but Bruce probably has a viable theory that ties in
with the push 'em ups concept... :)
-- JR
Steven F. Poole wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven F. Poole <mailto:stand...@ll.net>
To: Richard Halegua Comic Art & Movie Posters
<mailto:sa...@comic-art.com>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [MOPO] Provenance...............
Actually, I don't own a SON OF DRACULA, just using that as
an illustration........in my case its another card from
another Universal film and Heritage is not the auction
house/dealer in my case.
So, if provenance would not / cannot be disclosed, a dealer
or auction house seems to be putting themselves in the
position of taking in back in a No Questions Asked policy if I
happen to suspect it. I would not be able to go any further
back than where I got it from and they would have to honor my
feeling about it?
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