I don't really want to side with anyone in this debate but I do have say that all the pot shots taken between the feuding parties and at Ebay are getting tiresome to read. There is enough room in this hobby for a lot of different dealers, auction houses and marketplaces to co-exist without having to publicly criticize each other. One's own reputation is maximized by attempting to minimize the reputation of others. FRANC
-----Original Message----- From: MoPo List [mailto:mop...@listserv.american.edu] On Behalf Of Bruce Hershenson Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:35 PM To: MoPo-L@LISTSERV.AMERICAN.EDU Subject: Re: [MOPO] Any bets on METROPOLIS? I appreciate the kind sentiments, and I return them, but I notice you did not refute any of the specifics I gave! In posting here, I feel like Will Kane in High Noon going into the town saloon looking for back-up, and getting told "You have have a lot of nerve coming in here, Marshall, Frank Miller has a lot of friends in this room", and I suspect that a certain auction house similarly has a lot of friends on MoPo, given all the zillions of dollars they spread all over the hobby (just as in my poker analogy). I would consider asking for those who agree with me to post here, but I imagine that many would fear possible repercussions against themselves and maybe rightfully so. I am content to be a lone voice (of course David K posted eloquently on my behalf, so I am not truly alone) , and I will make this my final post HERE (if there are no posts attacking me), since I feel the facts of the matter are very clear, and time will tell who was right and who was wrong. If what I believe proves out, I will be happy to know that I hopefully was able to warn many of what was to come. If not, I will gladly publicly apologize! Bruce On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art <sa...@comic-art.com> wrote: Bruce we will always be friends, hopefully until my dying day Just because we disagree does not mean we have to be disagreeable. I love you like a brother and even brothers can fight once in a while but just to add one thing.. in poker terms. Doyle Brunson (as one example) is a legendary poker player and his book helped to bring in untold numbers of players & donkeys however, you and I both know things about Doyle that damages his legend. Don't damage your own legend. Rich At 01:08 PM 3/21/2010, Bruce Hershenson wrote: I disagree Rich. To me, you are like the guys who defended Madoff over and over up to the end, saying, "How could there be anything wrong when he is so huge and has operated on such a high level for many years". You can see with your own eyes the continued over-grading, the constant repeating of items that supposedly sold, the rules that allow bidders to bid on their own items, the "house bidder" who bids on LOTS of items but only win 1% to 2%, the reserves that can be over the estimates, the tiny handful of unrecorded floor bidders, the many lawsuits, the past use of doctored images until they were caught, etc, etc. Are you disputing any of this? I don't need to argue this with you, or anyone. If, as you say, my calling attention to the Emperor's lack of clothes is hurting me, that will only help your business. I hope we still can be friends in spite of our philosophical differences. And tme will prove one of us very right and one of us very wrong! Bruce On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art <sa...@comic-art.com> wrote: actually Andy, while you are correct for your part.. Bruce is also correct for his part. there is an abundance of cheating in poker the biggest problem being that, like Bruce says, the cheaters do tip the floor people and seeing as most cheating goes on in the big games, the tips are also big, and so the people who can stop it, really don't. The other reason it goes on is - who do you complain to? If you complain to the Gaming Board, they must be able to find proof. The house doesn't look at it because the money being lost is player money - not casino money also, Las Vegas cheating takes on many forms.. It isn't generally speaking - the guy holding out cards it's 5 people in the 1000-2000 blind game playing the same bankroll against one player from out of town with millions of dollars. Mark Cuban was cheated out here for $9million by "the big boys". He got his money back because as a major tech guy, he figured out what they were doing and got them to give his money back.. But the cheaters - who are some of the biggest names - didn't suffer any penalties beyond giving the money back. but cheating in poker takes very many forms from cold-decking, to theft etc.. no surprise, there is cash money involved.. However, that said.. I think it is a poor analogy otherwise. Bruce and I have a disagreement on Heritage, and I have told him so, and personally I think his constant bashing of Heritage hurts his own reputation. Bruce's reputation in the poster hobby is legendary. His service to the hobby will keep his name historically to the forefront. But to those of us who watch his regular rants on why Heritage is doing something wrong, I liken the situation to this: Do you remember at some point in your life you were hot for some super-stoking babe? I mean that one who was so-o-o-o-o-o hot you just wanted to marry her & give her everything her heart desired until the day you died? Then one day you had your chance and you took her to dinner and you saw what she was really like. She chewed gum with her mouth open like cow. SDhe smoked cigarettes one after the other. She didn't have a dainty laugh, she had one that sounded like a drunk hooker and when she spoke she cursed like a truck driver, and finally - she was a total Prima Donna to everyone around her. It just ruined your image of her and she was no longer this Heavenly Goddess that you worshiped from afar - she was just a regular chick with a hot ass and a nasty mouth. I think that by his constant haranguing of Heritage, Bruce affects his reputation negatively and that hurts his legend. Don't get me wrong.. If Heritage is doing something wrong, or if I'm doing something wrong or if anyone is doing something wrong, I'm all for public discourse on the issue. But I cannot and I will not rely on hearsay evidence to support my claims. I must have real proof and that Hendershott asshole doesn't give me much to work with. He doesn't look clean by any stretch of the imagination. Bruce likes to point out that people tell him everything they win at Heritage, they win at the top of their proxy bids.. I can't imagine that anyone would have a business model based on checking out what people's proxys are & bidding them out. The work required would negate most any benefit. The same goes for those people who believe Bruce shill bids his own stuff. I don't believe that either and I never have. I know that almost everything I win at Bruce I win at my top bid. I absolutely know it. But it isn't because Bruce is bidding me up - it's because I bid in real time, so when I won the Argentinian M for $310, it's because the underbidder and I are both bidding in real time, trying to save money, and so we are both incrementalizing our bids. The other side of the coin is that almost everything I lose in Bruce's auctions, I am the underbidder and almost never am I way down the bidder list because I'm not bidding until the last 10 minutes of the auction, and if it's too high - I don't bother bidding. I either win at or near my top bid, and I lose at the same level In the name of disclosure: I will say I do business with both Bruce and Heritage and without any doubt I have spent at least 5 times (and more likely 10 times) as much money with Bruce in the past year (or any other year) as I have with Heritage. Furthermore, my relationships with Bruce and Grey Smith are, in my mind, equal and I do not favor either one over the other. My only dog in this race is truth, and the interest in not having to read any more whiney posts about crooked behavior without any proof that such behavior has taken place. If you have real proof, put your money where your mouth is and let us have it. If not, your griping looks like rotten apples. Bruce.. did Grey kick your dog when you were kids?? did he steal your bubble gum? did he knock you off your bicycle when you two were racing and push you into a puddle?? Bruce, as your friend I say to you that it's time for the acrimony to end. I appreciate that you and Heritage compete directly for consignments and Heritage makes it painfully difficult to get those great Universal horror posters, or those early Oscar winners and that you do indeed suffer in some way by not making that money. The solution is not that you can gain on them by ragging on them. The solution is that you get more competitive against them. There is no need to fight and get bloody noses while everyone else is just trying to avoid the punches. Change your ad strategy. The cartoons may be fun to read, but I don't think they help much and certainly not nearly as much as ads looking for consignments might help. Announce that you're finally going to do that great auction with a beautiful catalog you've been talking about to some friends and get the merch to fill it. In other words, if you want to crush your competition, do it with sound business practices and not by spouting negativity. It doesn't do your own reputation any good. When the day comes that Hendershott's case goes to trial or gets otherwise resolved, you will either have something to crow about OR you will wind up apologizing for all the bad things you said when Hendershott's case gets dismissed - something which is a distinct possibility. Rich At 06:23 AM 3/21/2010, Andy Neal wrote: Hmmm interesting to hear lots of mention about poker, bad analogy really brucie, to win the most at poker or be excellent at poker you have to know probabilities and be able to work them out in a heartbeat and you need to understand what outs you have as your going along, also bluffing and knowing when to bluff is adventageous. Just my opinion on the poker comment, the other stuff I couldn't care less about, mopo is getting FAR too egotistical these days, I can't wait for the recession to end. Andy ________________________ On 2010-03-21 13:07:01 +0000 Bruce Hershenson < <mailto:brucehershen...@gmail.com> brucehershen...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks much David. You wrote an eloquent and spirited reply! > > Here's a further reply. I used to think great movie posters were vastly > undervalued, and I bought lots of them at then current prices. As prices > rose, many of them no longer seemed undervalued to me, and I sold most of > what I had bought, hanging onto my very favorites. Those three "This Gun For > Hires" were $2500 each, so my assessment was good on that example. > > Does a Metropolis insert seem undervalued to me at $47,000? No, but there > are likely many who feel otherwise, and I am happy they got a bargain, and I > hope for their sake these kinds of posters go the way of million dollar > comics, which I am sorry to say feels totally insane to me, a classic > "bubble".. > > *WHY* I shifted my business model is the same reason i quit playing poker. > To win the most at poker, you must find the absolute worst players you can, > and cheaters are rewarded (and the house often looks the other way on > cheating, because the cheaters "take care" of those running the game). I was > unwilling to continue playing on those terms, so I stopped playing entirely. > > When I first started high dollar auctions, I was "the only game in town". As > many others came along, and when I slowly saw that the majority of high > dollar auctions were much like high stakes poker (you do the best when you > find the absolute most uninformed buyers, and you use "clever" tricks to get > them to pay more, as with the 2001 re-release half-sheet), and cheaters are > rewarded (and I believe I have it made clear how this is) and since I knew I > was not willing to compete for consignments or bidders on those terms, I > quit high dollar auctions and shifted to my present model. > > The result is that, in addition to my earning a living and providing a > living for 25 employees, I feel that most of my 31,000 customers certainly > feel I have provided them with a very useful service, and I bet all of them > would say I treated them in an open and honest way, unusual for collectible > auctions. Most or all of my 500+ consignors would likely say I provided them > with a useful and valuable service, just as David did. > > There *ARE *those who keep stretching to find bad things to say about me, > but oddly they neither buy from me or sell through me, and many people have > privately guessed at their motivation, which seems painfully obvious. > > I have nothing against high dollar auctions or high stakes poker, when they > are 100% honestly run, and there is no deception involved. If I felt I could > successfully run such an auction today, I would be willing to try, but I > doubt I could get enough consignments on those terms, and I truly am happier > with my current business model. > > But as David said, I have "reinvented" myself several times over the years, > and there is no saying I won't do so one more time! > > Bruce > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, David Kusumoto > < davidmkusum...@hotmail.com <mailto:davidmkusum...@hotmail.com> >wrote: > >> ** Speaking ONLY for myself, a contemplative confessional from Bruce >> about the shifts in his selling ideologies over the span of 20 years would >> only matter to dealers who compete against Bruce -- and would be of little >> interest to us collectors. It appears like an attempt to catch him in a >> contradiction when in fact we all undergo transformations and re-tooling to >> ensure self-preservation. I've written thousands of words about Bruce and >> his consignment model -- and each transformation or attempt at >> self-re-invention has been a success. The quantity vs. quality question >> seems a back-handed way of saying Bruce no longer sells quality and only >> sells mid-range-to-cruddy stuff at high volumes. This is not true from >> where I sit as a consumer. No, he might not have a Frankenstein one-sheet >> come his way very soon -- nor would he care to go back to the "showroom" >> model with high overheads -- but he has sold things like the "camel" >> poster from "Lawrence of Arabia" for more than $11K during the nadir of the >> recession, still a record for that title. There is no venue or business >> model he has not tried before settling into his current model, hence to me >> he speaks with experience and some authority. Of course he's not the >> FINAL authority, but he's credible. Bruce's churning methods and fast pace >> have conditioned thousands of collectors AND dealers throughout this small >> hobby -- many who continue to both BUY and CONSIGN to him -- to reflexively >> check his listings anyway, as regularly as one would brush their teeth. >> Any >> collector or dealer who chooses to ignore his listings makes a conscious >> choice to pass up a potential bargain. >> >> ** The most important issue to most of us is still full disclosure and >> quality service -- and not questions about why competing dealer "x" thought >> one way in 1990 and became "y" in 2000 and is now "z" in 2010, e.g., which >> to me, as it pertains to Bruce -- is an efficiently run factory operation >> moving a wide swath of material that's honestly graded for thousands of >> customers. If I ever want something akin to the Hope Diamond, I can always >> consult the Greys, the Seans, the Todds, the Freemans and the Walters and >> Kirbys and Sams, -- and even the Bruces, etc., etc., of the world. (Sorry >> if I left anyone out, I've bought from most everyone so it's hard to >> remember.) If I was a dealer, I wouldn't be surprised if all of the >> aforementioned names -- have shifted their ideologies about poster selling >> in conjunction with the universal acceptance of the Internet, and have >> subsequently found their niches or comfort zones -- and adjusted >> accordingly. Some of us still know where to go for certain things. -d. >> >> ===================== >> From: Sean Linkenback >> To: MOPO-L@listserv.american.edu >> >> Re: [MOPO] Any bets on METROPOLIS? >> Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:22:52 -0700 >> >> >> Bruce, >> Could you share the story with us that led to your decision to change >> directions as it were in your poster selling philosophy? >> >> Certainly in the early days of your business you concentrated on catering >> to "investors" and/or "advanced collectors". Yes, you published your sales >> list, but your convention appearances and focus of course was on quality >> over quantity and in getting those high-dollar pieces for the early >> Christie's auctions and working to attract high-end collectors. I even >> remember reading a profile on poster investing with you in a Delta Skymiles >> Magazine, and you related a story where you met with Jose and wanted to buy >> all 3 copies of the one-sheet he had on "This Gun For Hire". >> >> What happened that made you do a change and decide to focus on quantity >> instead? >> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com >> ___________________________________________________________________ How to >> UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: >> lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF >> MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. >> >> > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > > Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: lists...@listserv.american.edu In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
