Andre:
Your taxes are intended for the social good, and it is not my fault that
these taxes go towards the fabrication of more and more weapons of
destruction( that are used in over three quarters of the globe killing,
maiming, suffocating ,unsettling, bribing and forcing other peoples into
believing that your ideas of SOM non-quality is the highest quality to be
achieved so be fucking thankfull for having us here) especially when you
vote for fucking leaders that persuade you to do so... and that that is the
social good and indeed your god-given responsibility! You need a rethinking
of your values and that is why Pirsig wrote ZMM and Lila.
woods:
Andre. Exactly. It's always good to hear this from an outsider, meaning,
somebody from outside the U.S. Believe me. Each person hear, even
if it's Platt, mel, or Arlo, are finding something berserk or out of control
from
even the voters anymore. That's the point of or underlying assumption, I
think,
at times. That's why Pirsig took off on his motorcycle with Chris. Something
went crazy, and it wasn't Pirsig. Pirsig wasn't the source of the craziness.
Pirsig was a symptom of the craziness going on in the U.S. When most people
didn't want to bailout, for example, and the phone lines were flooded to their
House of Representatives offices, people in the U.S. noticed a beast, call
it a giant as Pirsig noted, that is way out of control in a blind way.
This is one reason I brought up fair tax or sales tax. It would
decentralize
the U.S.'s money purse, and if something was going seriously of low quality
and the whole of the U.S. felt it, knew it, or whatever, then we could opt.
out of the system or if the system is pushing us out, as the jobs as being
lost ever-increasingly now in the U.S., well, then we have a system to fall
back on instead of out in the cold winter that is coming.
Andre, you've pin-pointed something about the U.S. that many of us
find disturbing, but seriously Andre, I find this U.S. beast more and more
out of our hands, so, watch out. Each election season in the U.S.,
each of candidates are promising something. Something better. So,
what is being argued for and debated by these candidates is something
the U.S. population yearns for, but increasing don't find homage in the usual
two party system in the U.S. We are finding something wrong here in the
U.S. but we all have our reasons and perspectives as to what is wrong
in the U.S. We all are coming at this elephant with different feelers, and
hands
on different parts of this elephant, having a difficult time pin-pointing
what exactly if changed would change the U.S. in a much better way with
honest and moral results. When I say U.S., I have to clarify for some here
once you say U.S. they think about the Bill of Rights, Declaration of
Independence, and U.S. constitution. I'm not saying these documents
with good concepts need changed. That's not the U.S. I'm referring too. I'm
referring to a U.S. that has lost its' moral compass. Pirsig felt a need
to bring values and morals back into discussion in the U.S. for a reason. The
depth
of this Andre, is deep, very deep.
Andre:
I read through some of your posts an adherence to the scenario I am painting
here.
Discussion came up about profits/ monies etc i.e. social rewards. The
question was something like; what can we replace it with. I suggested a
moneyless society and I saw your reactions...keep on dreaming Andre.
You are looking for an alternative reward to all the hard work you put in
everyday, to make things comfortable for yourselves and your children and
hopefully your childrens children.
woods:
Understand Andre. What your saying may be all well and good. It may
work fine, very fine. But we're entrenched with a monetary system, so,
for us to be able to imagine how a population of ca. 250 million will remain
organized without a monetary system, which is a very strong organizational
system, is quite difficult to grasp. Keep your idea. I, for one will listen,
but
at this point, we're trying to apply ideas. If our applications of ideas lead
into
a moneyless society, then that's what happens. You asking us, maybe,
to just start a whole new system and drop this old one too immediately, too
quickly.
For instance, Ron Paul says the Federal Reserve needs to go. This central
banking stuff hasn't worked in U.S. history, and Presidents of the past
have gotten rid of it, but then it creeps back. The Federal Reserve was set up
to deter and avoid financial problems yet since its' establishment instead
of avoiding financial catastrophe's it has been involved in the Great
Depression
and now, this current one. But to make this transition work, Ron Paul is going
to be focusing first, on transparency. The Federal Reserve is not transparent.
Lot's of secret meetings go on in the Federal Reserve that lead into U.S.
policy, but
we don't know their inner workings, yet, they provide policies that can lead
a country into a Great Depression or the reverse. Nobody can
audit the Federal Reserve. It's easy to find out what's going on in the CIA,
even
if the larger population doesn't know, but somebody does in gov't, including
parts
of Congress and the President, but yet, we aren't allowed to know anything, at
all,
about what is happening in the Federal Reserve. That's how much power
the Federal Reserve wields over the U.S. and the world, for the Federal Reserve
is involved with world policies, as recent as these economic summits (two
weekends ago; G7
and banking meetings in Washington, D.C.) with the new one possibly in December
maybe sooner.
There's a lot going on in the U.S. It's an established system. Every
election year, in my
lifetime, the candidates promise they will change Washington, D.C., but they
never do. You
see. Something is happening here, that is out of control.
Andre:
How about this really soft, fluffy,woolley, intangible thing called quality
which you find when you start caring (another one of wooley, hippy- like
things) about what you do everyday day of your life, caring about those
around you.Caring so much that you begin to wonder why you do not have a
national health system, caring enough to wonder why your education system is
in the state it is in,caring enough so you begin to wonder why the welfare
system is in a mess. These are social networks put in place through the
caring intellectual attitude because it has recognised that not everyone has
the same opportunities, not everyone is born with equal capacities etc etc.
Caring enough that you indeed begin to wonder why some one person should
have 22 billion dollars in the bank and some of your countrymen have nothing
to show for except an honest family for an honest days pay for an honest
day's work and nothing more and should anything happen to mum or dad that
this automatically reduces them to destitution.
woods:
Andre. The U.S. is wacked out. I don't have any numbers, but many
people in the U.S. are on some kind of mental or emotional medication. Many
drink, take legal and illegal drugs, to feel better. It's the spirit here.
It's
decadent. Many people are trying to turn the tide, but inspiration is weak
here.
Crime rates are very high in the U.S. We don't have enough prisons and we are
building more and more of them all the time. One is going up just north of
where I live.
Youth detention centers get over-crowded from time to time, because so many
youth are breaking the law, running away from home, and/or a part of growing
chaos in the house.
The gov't is talking about giving more money to people, a stimulus package,
why?
So they can spend, spend, spend. Consume, consume, consume. This culture's
had it. Sorry, but this culture needs a moral regeneration.
Andre:
The value experience you get cannot be converted into money. This is an
insult to the quality work you have put in!!
Wake up to yourselves...it is indeed all SO fucking M thinking.
When can we get back to MoQ stuff? I really enjoyed Marsha and woods'
conversation and am very sorry to see it stopped due to differing personal
experiences (and interpretations in Moq terminology) of the same thing. If
we keep this up we are destroying the MoQ and in the process render our
personal experiences once again meaningless and thereby handing victory to
good old SOM.
Tear me to bits!
woods:
We're trying. I think all these conversations fit in somewhere. I've been
reinvigorated by Marsha's new way to approach the discussion in the "patterns
revisited"
thread. So, I don't think Marsha and I are done just yet. I think I needed to
rest for
a moment, sit back, and let some of what she was saying tumble around
inside of me for a moment. It's good.
I often wondered why people seemed to not be talking about the moq when
I first joined this forum and asked about it too. I soon discovered it
cycles. We get into moq concepts and then we try to apply them to this world
in a way that we might find the moq would view this world. It does this. Then
we get stuck, opposing views, etc..., then life regenerates in the forum.
Your call. Right now. At this moment. Is a very call that each of
us are making when we each post. I think your on to something
when you put it into words. I find it inspiring.
woods
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