software advocate wrote:
On 2/22/07, Jay Pipes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have no idea what this means. :(
First, you were complaining about PHP and Jim noted that we have a PHP
native driver in the works. Then, you move on to Python and Java...
sounds like you're just flame-baiting.
I don't mean to sound like I'm trolling. PHP is the most common relation in
which others can relate. Just to be clear, my reasons for not using PHP
were not MySQL related.
Fair enough, and my apologies for sounding harsh (it's been a long week
but there's really no excuse for my being rude.)
Also, your lack of knowledge about the GPL is apparent. You aren't
arguing anything to do with licensing. You're simply complaining that
something isn't free as in beer when you want it to be.
I don't lack any knowledge. What I'm saying is people are looking at what
the MySQL website has to say and often get confused. I've seen plenty of
people who just have the simplest of questions which are obfuscated by the
MySQL website.
OK, there is a mismatch here between what you are saying and what you
are describing as a problem for your own development. To be more
specific, there really isn't a licensing issue *unless* you are linking
or embedding MySQL in a *non open source* application which you are
*distributing* as a package. I can think of no real-world scenario
under which an application written with the TurboGears framework would
come into a licensing issue, as the framework is designed AFAIK, to work
with the mysql connector library present on the server running the
application (MySQLdb library or the python-language driver, I can't
remember it's name...)
Where "confusion" typically comes up is not confusion at all; instead it
usually follows one of the following conditions:
The developer has embedded libmysqld or libmysql (the server or the
client) within the application and does not want to open source the
application. This comes into play in packaged applications typically,
not PHP, Python, Perl stuff. And, in this case, the developer has the
choice of a) requiring the installing user to have installed MySQL
separately, b) open sourcing their own application, c) writing their own
native MySQL client, or d) building in licensing costs into the
application after having gotten a quote from MySQL for such use.
The GPL is about *user* freedom, and reciprocity (i.e. if I open source,
you open source). Many developers love the idea of *using* GPL software
but don't like the idea of open sourcing their *own* software, which is
unfortunate for the developer, but precisely what the GPL aims to
prevent, in order to best protect the rights of the end-user.
Non-copyleft licenses such as BSD/MIT aim to protect the *developer's*
rights and free up any restrictions on the developer, allowing the
developer to use and incorporate such software in their own projects
with no reciprocity of opening up their own source.
There are merits to both approaches, but that is outside the scope of
discussion here.
I do see your point about the sockets layer/client protocol and that
language is being removed/has been removed from our website because it
has been, as you point out, a source of confusion; I will agree with you
there.
But, on a general note, I *don't* think that MySQL licensing is
confusing, and any confusion thereof stems from confusion about what the
GPL itself states. I hear tons of times how developers claim that they
fall under the mere aggregation clause when in fact they do not -- it's
just an attempt to bypass the GPL restrictions.
Like yourself, I'm no lawyer, and Clint, our general counsel is welcome
to chime in here... but my honest *personal* opinion is that most times
I hear complaints about this, it tends to be just that, a complaint that
there is no way around the GPL and that people wish that the license was
BSD so that there would be no reason to acquire a license *if needed*.
Am I pushing MySQL license costs? NO WAY (hey, I'm in the Community
Team!) What I am saying is that I think there are pretty clear lines
which say on one side "no license needed" and on the other side "license
needed". The client protocol clause was indeed confusing, which is why
Jim and I noted it's being/has been removed from the site.
Hey, if you want to go ahead and waste valuable development time by
writing your own mysql client library for your (TurboGears???) software
instead of building in the small licensing cost that goes with embedding
or linking with the MySQL GPL libs, go right ahead. Nobody's stopping
you, and nobody's stopping your potential customers from buying your
competitor's software which is moving right along while you re-invent
the wrong wheels.
The plus to writing a language specific extension not only to get away from
the license fee, but to have a language specific extension. By having the
extension written in a language, say Python, you have more control(errors,
segfaults) than what you would with an extension written in C(though I've
never had/or seen the mysql client library crash). Also from the deployment
standpoint, there is no need to recompile the source on each platform you
release, only python, making even better.
Agreed, and MySQL is aiming to provide just this for PHP, Python, and
other languages both this year and in the future. It's a hot
development right now internally.
I take offense to "reinvent the wrong wheels". This is what free
software is
about, creating new software which may be useful for others. If I release a
pure python implementation and it hurts MySQL because they're losing people
paying fees, too bad. Free software and such, you know?
Sorry again for being harsh... I shouldn't have been so snarky. But, I
would debate your definition of free software ;) I don't think it's all
about reinventing wheels; I view free software as providing the bedrock
upon which wheels of different sizes and types can be developed...
Cheers, and sorry again for behaving like a poo-head.
Jay Pipes
Community Relations Manager, North America, MySQL
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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