Thanks Jon; I am starting a new thread for this Dekatron project. I will post tomorrow after some tests. Peter
On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:31 PM Jon <dekat...@nomotron.com> wrote: > Actually, musing on it further, you might have a bit of a problem with the > 74141 and dekatrons. I suspect the chip output transistors won't have a > high enough Vceo to cope if you try to use the typical dekatron anode > voltages. Likely you're either going to need to play around to run the tube > at lower anode voltages (not sure that'll work very well) or switch to a > mixture of logic and discrete components - something along the lines of a > 7442 driving MPSA42 (you'll need an inverter between them). > > The GR10A is the best option here I think - that should work fine with > 74141. > > Jon. > > On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 3:16:35 PM UTC Jon wrote: > >> >Can a Dekatron be driven like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the >> steering electrodes? >> >> I've not actually done the experiment in the way that you say, but the >> answer should be 'yes'. You'll need a selector dekatron though where all >> the main cathodes are brought out to their own individual pins. So GS10C / >> 6476 / A101 for example rather than GC10B / 6802 / OG4. >> >> There is actually a dekatron-lookalike, the GR10A, which is designed to >> be used like this - it's essentially a GS10C without the guide electrodes >> (different base, but that's a detail). >> >> Jon. >> >> On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 2:38:21 PM UTC bung...@gmail.com wrote: >> >>> Alex; you are missing the point. Neither of the circuits shown in >>> various data sheets work properly! >>> The circuit that does work and the one I'm using has the capacitor >>> connected to the other side of the resistor. >>> A quick question so it does not get lost below: Can a Dekatron be driven >>> like a Nixie from a 74141 instead of using the steering electrodes? >>> >>> [image: 8453_LR.jpg] >>> [image: 8453 Board_LR.jpg] >>> Each tube has its own small circuit board that connects to a PIC on my >>> power supply by a 6 wire (+5v, Gnd, 4 BCD) harness. and by a separate two >>> wire harness if High Voltage is needed (the 2 pin 0.2" spacing header on >>> the perfboard above). My wires are fed through a hole and loop down to be >>> soldered to provide strain relief. All boards mount on two spacers. Some >>> mount directly on the back of the tube if space allows. Any board can be >>> removed in less than a minute, usually 2 screws but 4 screws where the >>> board is not attached to the tube, then pull one or two connectors. >>> [image: Wiring_LR.jpg] >>> The E1T tube does not count in sync with the others because it is >>> clocked, not fed by the common BCD bus. It takes time for the filaments to >>> warm up so it needs a reset every decade to get it in sync. However it >>> cannot count backwards without a lot of effort I'm not about to expend so >>> it stays like this. The hole below is for LED displays. >>> [image: Display Demo_LR.jpg] >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:38 AM Alex <ajlg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Just a thought, maybe the diodes originally used had a much different >>>> reverse leakage which, in half wave rectified setup, caused the polarity in >>>> the tube to flip slightly - at low leakage current levels - and thus >>>> extinguish it more cleanly between ripples. Modern(!) silicon (verses >>>> germanium) may be too sharp for it? I think your full wave design is >>>> probably best anyhow, the half wave was likely a cost compremise! >>>> - Alex >>>> >>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 20:08:35 UTC bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>>> I tried Rk at 12k and 22k and it is still erratic. >>>>> Next I went back to full wave and connected it to my display chassis >>>>> that runs from a PIC that counts at various speeds. I see the circuit only >>>>> counts slowly but at 10/sec it fails. No flickering, it just does not >>>>> count. >>>>> I changed the capacitor to the other side of Rk and it works perfectly. >>>>> I can't believe it is a typo carried through three documents but >>>>> companies have been known to intentionally place errors to cause grief to >>>>> anyone trying to steal their designs. >>>>> This circuit works. >>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 12:47:29 PM UTC-5 Dekatron42 wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, I've never looked at that particular datasheet previously, >>>>>> only the Philips ones even though I have a few Amperex stamped Z550M's. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this document: https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M2.pdf (a >>>>>> somewhat clearer PDF can be downloaded here: >>>>>> http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/Z550M_2.pdf) there >>>>>> is a paragraph on "Supply voltage" on page 120 where they mention a >>>>>> minimum >>>>>> repetition frequency of 80 pulses per second as a minmum for proper >>>>>> operation - perhaps that is the reason why it doesn't work as well on >>>>>> just >>>>>> half wave rectification. Maybe Amperex had some specially made to be able >>>>>> to drive them at 117 VAC @ 60Hz? >>>>>> >>>>>> /Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 17:56:07 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin; See attached for data sheet. I have tried different >>>>>>> capacitors. They make no difference for either full wave or half wave - >>>>>>> full wave always works with no indication of problems and half wave >>>>>>> flickers all over the place and never works (unless I move the capacitor >>>>>>> connection). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bill van Dijk: I am in Canada, 60 Hz. Control grid?? See data sheet >>>>>>> attached. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was hoping someone else would have tried these circuits. I have >>>>>>> used a 'scope to check the various signals and they look fine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:06 AM Dekatron42 <martin....@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which datasheet do you use? I only have information with the full >>>>>>>> wave rectifier. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What happens if you use a 470nF or 1uF capacitor with the half wave >>>>>>>> rectifier? I made some quick LTSpice simulations which shows that a >>>>>>>> higher >>>>>>>> capacitor might work as the voltage seems to fall low enough between >>>>>>>> each >>>>>>>> period, but only real tests can show if that works properly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, 12 February 2021 at 14:13:47 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Martin, I changed the circuit back to halfwave using a single >>>>>>>>> diode from the bridge rectifier and changing the capacitor. This was >>>>>>>>> absolute minimum change without moving anything else. Back came the >>>>>>>>> erratic flashing. So it's not the diode. It just does not like half >>>>>>>>> wave. >>>>>>>>> My circuits are direct copies from the data sheet. >>>>>>>>> Peter >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:21 PM Dekatron42 <martin....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nice that it works! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> My understanding is that they need rectified AC, with just a >>>>>>>>>> little smoothing so as not to make it a pure DC voltage, as they >>>>>>>>>> extinguish >>>>>>>>>> during the portion of the voltage when it is to low to maintain the >>>>>>>>>> glow, >>>>>>>>>> and they are re-ignited when the voltage rise again as long as a >>>>>>>>>> trigger >>>>>>>>>> electrode has the correct voltage to initiate a glow, much like a >>>>>>>>>> thyratron. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Maybe you can find the reason for it working now compared to >>>>>>>>>> earlier failures if you check the voltage across the >>>>>>>>>> Anode-Cathode-Ignition >>>>>>>>>> electrode with an oscilloscope? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've also had some problems with CMOS ic's when I have had poor, >>>>>>>>>> or no, connection to VCC/GND on the power pins - the circuit worked >>>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>>> well until I touched some pins. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 21:50:49 UTC+1 bung...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I have solved the problem but I don't understand why. >>>>>>>>>>> Having tried all the suggestions except this, I went to a full >>>>>>>>>>> wave rectifier. It is not quite the same as the data sheet but does >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> same thing. >>>>>>>>>>> It also has the capacitor connected per the data sheet, the same >>>>>>>>>>> as my half wave circuit that did not work. >>>>>>>>>>> This is rock solid with no indication of any other flickering. I >>>>>>>>>>> am using the first (worst) tube. Touching the glass has no effect. >>>>>>>>>>> Apparently the tube does not like half wave. Perhaps it was my >>>>>>>>>>> 1N4007 diode? They can switch too fast and maybe it needed a >>>>>>>>>>> snubber. >>>>>>>>>>> I also tried DC from a variable regulated power supply (HP 6448B up >>>>>>>>>>> to 600 volt@1.5 amp, and no, I did not go that far). That >>>>>>>>>>> locked the display on one digit. The data sheet says it needs >>>>>>>>>>> rectified >>>>>>>>>>> line, not DC. >>>>>>>>>>> I am running my tests from an HP supply for the 5v and an >>>>>>>>>>> isolation transformer driven by a Variac for the AC so I have full >>>>>>>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>> of all voltages. >>>>>>>>>>> This is my final schematic. It is driven by a PIC with parallel >>>>>>>>>>> connectors for each display. I used a PIC to generate the BCD >>>>>>>>>>> because CMOS >>>>>>>>>>> would not drive the three 74141 for the Nixies. The PIC counts up >>>>>>>>>>> and down >>>>>>>>>>> at varying speeds which would have been more difficult with CMOS. >>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:33 AM Dekatron42 < >>>>>>>>>>> martin....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Touching the glass means that you get a capacitive coupling >>>>>>>>>>>> which will upset them somewhat, there was a special socket made >>>>>>>>>>>> for this by >>>>>>>>>>>> Philips which has a partial metal screen surrounding the tube. The >>>>>>>>>>>> socket >>>>>>>>>>>> is nicknamed "der Kuss" , "The kiss", due to its form. I couldn't >>>>>>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>>>>>> photo on the Internet now but I know it exists as I have some in >>>>>>>>>>>> my storage >>>>>>>>>>>> and in an instrument that uses them. That instrument is called >>>>>>>>>>>> PW4261 >>>>>>>>>>>> Timer, some photos of the externals can be found on the Internet. >>>>>>>>>>>> On this >>>>>>>>>>>> socket all of the resistors are mounted flush to the pins to >>>>>>>>>>>> minimize the >>>>>>>>>>>> distance, but the capacitors and power supply is mounted some 40cm >>>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>>> tubes themselves, likewise there are long wires to the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You can also have a look at the manual for the PW4231 which I >>>>>>>>>>>> scanned that can be downloaded from here: >>>>>>>>>>>> https://frank.pocnet.net/other/sos/Philips_PW4232.pdf if that >>>>>>>>>>>> can help you with the voltages for the drivers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 15:50:55 UTC+1 >>>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I meant dekatron in my last reply to gregebert. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have 3 of these tubes, all apparently new (NOS). >>>>>>>>>>>>> Per your suggestion I tried the other two. One is almost >>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect but flashes the 2 a bit when 8 is selected. The third is >>>>>>>>>>>>> perfect >>>>>>>>>>>>> unless I hold the tube in my fingers by the glass where I get >>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of >>>>>>>>>>>>> random flashing. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Remember that the really bad one works perfectly with >>>>>>>>>>>>> the capacitor moved as I mentioned. I don't know if touching the >>>>>>>>>>>>> glass >>>>>>>>>>>>> affects it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> More later, I will be away this morning. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 2:10 AM Dekatron42 < >>>>>>>>>>>>> martin....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you tried the circuit in the J.B Dance book below? Here >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they use a center tapped transformer and also a much lower value >>>>>>>>>>>>>> capacitor, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> only 33nF versus 250nF in your circuit - I've only evere seen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 33nF used in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> real instruments using these indicators. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite a few of the Z550M/ZM1050 are broken internally, I have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a box of them, and that seems to be due to the welding of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> parts coming loose when shaken or hit hard (the same problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exists with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the B9012/NL9012 tubes - I have a few broken ones of those too >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> internal pieces that have come loose) - sometimes you can hear >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these loose >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pieces if you shake the tube very carefully close to your ear. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What usually >>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens is that a rather large round center piece comes loose >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> worst case shortens some of the electrodes but usually only >>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes it hard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or impossible to get all digits to light up poperly and some of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger easier than others due to the distances between >>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> differing, shaking the tube a little moves that effect around so >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> digits will start to work and vice versa. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> /Martin >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: JBDance-Z550M.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, 11 February 2021 at 06:02:24 UTC+1 gregebert >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have an isolation transformer, can you put a scope on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cathode line to verify the ripple is not excessive ? Rk and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ck create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an RC filter around 77Hz, and the line is 50-60Hz, so there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could be some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ripple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 8:26:51 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried varying it with absolutely no effect. It runs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perfectly at 5v with the capacitor moved to the other side of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resistor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However I was clocking slowly. It may not run at spec speed. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember reading of using 5 to 8 volts for the logic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data sheet shows the following which I'm inclined to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. I will try Ck directly on the pins tomorrow. Someone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have tried this circuit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Cct.JPG] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 11:12 PM gregebert < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greg...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect the differential voltage between lit vs non-lit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numerals is too low. The CMOS device is basically driving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grids to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine which cathode will be illuminated. I've seen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar behavior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with an A-101 dekatron. What voltage are you using for VDD ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it 8V as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indicated on the schematic, or a more-conventional 5V ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 10, 2021 at 7:22:25 PM UTC-8 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bung...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you are wrong. The literature explains this tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is designed to be driven by 5v logic and it does work. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes are close to the Anode voltage which is grounded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and only 5v >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pulses (square waves) are needed. Note all the cathodes are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together internally. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I got to thinking about the C1 position. The data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shows it per my schematic and I can't believe they made that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mistake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> several times including the hand drawn notes of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designer. I think maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I needed to have C1 directly on the socket pins and will try >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your interest though but you are thinking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nixie Tubes, this is a special tube with steering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electrodes.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 9:42 PM chuckrr < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chu...@all2easy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That schematic is so wrong in so many ways. You need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high voltage transistors operating the tube cathodes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need high resistance drving the transistor bases. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You need a buffer such as 4049 or 4050 driving the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resistor, which in turn drives the transistor base. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Only then would I dare to use the 4028....to operate the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buffer, which in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn operates the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transistor base via appropriate high resistance. That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only sure fire way I know of to attain noise-free >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CMOS logic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> driving cold cathode tubes. That schematic there is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noisy deal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Original Message ---- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "peter bunge" <bung...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/10/2021 8:15:21 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "neonixie-l" <neoni...@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [neonixie-l] 8453/Z550M erratic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Using the schematic from the data sheet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: 8453 Circuit.jpg] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This works with the count moving around but other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers flash erratically, especially close to the number >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is supposed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be lit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *When I moved the bottom of C1 to the other side of R1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it works perfectly. It is rock steady and does not care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about line voltage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the 5v supply (shown above as 8v but used at 5v)* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this is an error it is continued through all the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation and is consistent. Changing the value of C1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up and down by 10 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had little effect but a smaller C1 helps a bit. My Rst are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all directly on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the socket pins and the wires are all about 5 inches long. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have varied the line voltage with little effect. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions??? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/b996ef0b-edbb-4c77-8ec1-57255dd58a82n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/202102101842701.SM05295%40ADT-IM1?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/9543e23e-ebb0-46e7-8624-ddcf4a843667n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "neonixie-l" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to neonixie-l+...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/7085da7d-27dd-46f3-9bba-9e2d369dcc4fn%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 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