***OFF TOPIC ALERT*** ***don't read if you're not interested*** On Sunday 18 August 2002 16:02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sunday 18 August 2002 02:30 pm, you wrote: > >> On Sunday 18 August 2002 13:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > On Sunday 18 August 2002 12:00 pm, you wrote: > >> > >> On Friday 16 August 2002 10:21 pm, you wrote: > >> > >> > On Friday 16 August 2002 07:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >> > > have you checked the systems at wallmart.com? no monitor (add > >> > >> > > whatever you want) but the computers w/mandrake installed are a > >> > >> > > hard price to beat. even as a reseller, with out "volume > >> > >> > > discounts" I cannot beat the price. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I feel you but I'm building this myself so I get to deduct the > >> > >> > cost of labor from those machines. Plus the parts in those > >> > >> > systems are garbage. They are good enough to run Linux, but they > >> > >> > rarely outlive their warranties. Even when it only saves me $100 > >> > >> > or so, I like building it myself to know it was done right and > >> > >> > with high quality parts. Peace. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > Isaac > >> > >> > >> > >> if all you save is 100.00, then you (may should) have some > >> > >> questions as to the quality of what you get. It does not hurt me at > >> > >> all to fess to that... how much can you charge in labor to put > >> > >> together pieces that could be purchased (assembled and configured) > >> > >> for less than you can purchase the pieces individuly? > >> > >> > >> > >> I cann't seem to find what exact MObo and brand of Harddrive or > >> > >> Mem. theese are "suposed to have, so I am wondering about where > >> > >> you get your evidence about "the parts in those systems are > >> > >> garbage." and if you think you can save a buck building it > >> > >> yourself, without a good volume discount, I bet we would all like > >> > >> to see how you do that. > >> > > >> > I went to Mwave.com and priced out (roughly) what I think the > >> > Walmart.com system would cost in parts (I think Mwave is quality with > >> > reasonable (if not the best) prices) > >> > > >> > WallMart sytem Mwave >Price > >> > AMD Duron 1.3 GHz processor 64.00 > >> > 200 MHz frontside bus MoBo > >> > 128 MB SDRAM, expandable to 1GB 30.00 > >> > 40 GB Ultra ATA-100 hard drive, 5400 rpm 80.00 > >> > (total accessible capacity varies depending on operating environment) > >> > 52x CD-ROM drive 40.00 > >> > 3.5-inch floppy disk drive 15.00 > >> > Integrated 10/100 Ethernet connection Mobo > >> > PCI 56 Kbps Hardware modem 35.00 > >> > Integrated Trident Blade 2-D/3-D graphics > Mobo > >> > Up to 8 MB shared video memory Mobo > >> > Integrated 3-D enhanced sound Mobo > >> > Micro ATX Tower Case (7.06" W x 14.7" D x 13.8" H) 35.00 > >> > Total drive bays: two 5.25-inch external, two 3.5-inch external and > >> > one Case 3.5-inch internal > >> > Available drive bays: 5.25-inch external and 3.5-inch external, > >> > 3.5-inch Case internal > >> > Total slots: 3 PCI Mobo > >> > Available slots: 2 PCI Mobo > >> > High-speed serial port Mobo > >> > Parallel port Mobo > >> > 2 USB ports Mobo > >> > Game port Mobo > >> > 104-key keyboard 10.00 > >> > 2-button mouse w/wheel 10.00 > >> > Audio port (line-in, line-out, mic-in) Mobo > >> > Stereo speakers 15.00 > >> > Mobo 75.00 > >> > > >> > now, unless I added something twice, or my numbers are way wrong (and > >> > I ain't sure about a PCI hardware modem for 35.00, I did not see that > >> > and really did not look, might be a few bucks more, but heck you might > >> > decide to use an HSP modem for 35.00, 80.00 bucks is the price for the > >> > second modem you will use <grin>), without paying for anyone's time or > >> > shipping of individual parts, it seems to work out to $ 394.00, > >> > without really good parts, like an antec case or fancy (read clean) > >> > powersupply. (speaking of lasting past the warrenty) same machine, > >> > built configured and ready for yo to resell, (hint) 428.00. hmmmmm how > >> > much are you thinking of making? > >> > >> I think I might have expressed myself wrong-- I'm not charging anyone > >> for labor. I'm saying that I am able to buy more/better parts for the > >> same price because I am only paying for parts whereas one who purchases > >> from a store is really paying for parts + labor. Furthermore, I only use > >> high quality parts. I don't care if I'm building a $600 glorified word > >> processor, I don't use the junk that Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc. slap in > >> their computers. They use name brand processors and video cards and > >> keyboards and mouses (mice?), but beyond that it's pretty random. > >> > >> The scariest things are mobos and memory. If you're buying AMD, there is > >> one and only one motherboard that it safe to use-- the ECS K7S5A (there > >> are three safe versions of it, but I consider it all one board). VIA > >> chipsets aren't even worth the price you could fetch melting them down > >> and selling them as scrap metal. With a fast processor you absolutely > >> have to have ECC memory, and DDR may be slower than the P4's Rambus, but > >> it's much more stable under pressure. I'm not trying to be a hardware > >> elitist or anything, I understand and respect people who either save > >> themselves money by using generic or second / third-tier parts but it's > >> just not my style. Same with overclockers, I know they have to use some > >> pretty trashy hardware to get what they want, but it's even more > >> unstable overclocked than it is at normal speed-- and that's saying a > >> lot. > >> > >> The system you're talking about cuts some pretty silly corners. Why buy > >> a CD-ROM when equal or better DVD-ROMS are available for $5/$6 more? Who > >> would ever use a 5400 RPM hard drive, except on a $500/$600 entry level > >> system? Onboard graphics with an AMD processor? I'm really curious what > >> board you're using, because I didn't see it mentioned. It's obviously > >> not the ECS, and unless there has been a revolution in AMD-compatible > >> motherboards that I didn't hear about, I'd steer clear of it. You're > >> talking about 128 MB of RAM, I need 512. > >> > >> You're talking about stuffing a 1.3 GHz processor inside a MicroATX > >> case, and an AMD one at that (hope the fan in your case has air > >> conditioning)! Speaking of which, the geniuses that put this together at > >> Wal Mart chose to pay $12 more for the 1.3 GHz processor (because it's > >> the only thing non-geeks know about when they read ads in the paper) > >> instead of paying $20-$25 more for a 7200 RPM hard drive or even $4 more > >> for a DVD-ROM. Hell, for $20-$25 dollars you could upgrade from those > >> garbage monitors that come in store-bought systems to a low-end 17" that > >> would allow you to use some decent resolutions. Besides, who would EVER > >> make the expense of purchasing a 1.3 GHz processor and then go and stick > >> 128 MB of RAM in it? A system would run twice as fast with a simple 1.0 > >> GHz and 256 MB. > >> > >> This whole thing is a very unfair comparison. You're trying to compare a > >> system at Wal Mart that uses not only generic and onboard EVERYTHING, > >> but completely different parts. I'm talking 512 MB, you're talking 128, > >> I'm using a 7200 RPM name brand hard drive, you're touting a 54 generic. > >> I mean, I am talking about a $150 4.1 digital audio system with an > >> excellent sound card, and you're trying to compare it to some $15 > >> speakers and onboard audio! Even if I used junk generic parts at the > >> speeds and sizes I am talking about, I would only trim around 10% of the > >> cost. And to what end? So that my computer will fall apart two years > >> from now like the ones all my friends own? I just don't get the logic of > >> buying crappy hardware, it never pays off in the long run. > >> > >> You're also talking about doing the whole thing through Wal-Mart. Let me > >> get this right-- you run Linux because Bill Gates is the White Devil, > >> but you go and buy your box from Wal-Mart? WAL-MART?! Why don't you just > >> wait a few years and order all your Linux compatible hardware online > >> from microsoft.com? I mean, come on... Wal Mart? How revolutionary is > >> that? Where else can you get open source software and senior citizens > >> making minimum wage to pay their prescription drug bills, all under the > >> same roof? You fight the power, brother. > >> > >> Maybe I'm a little baised becuase WalMart is currently lobbying to be > >> able to destroy a local marsh / Native American burial ground to put up > >> a new supercenter in my hometown (the courts overturned the city's right > >> to zone it as a non-commercial, protected wetland area and the > >> Department of Environmental Protection is bending over for them now > >> too), but I wouldn't even buy the hunk of junk you're talking about from > >> a nice local business operating out of the downtown. All anti-WalMart > >> politics aside, you're talking about a bunch of worthless hardware > >> that's not even the same KIND of hardware I'm talking about. If you want > >> to run computers like that, go right ahead, but I'd never, EVER consider > >> sacrificing stability for price even in the most inexpensive entry-level > >> $600 system. > >> > >> </rant>, > >> Isaac > > Man, I am sorry to hear that in your part of the Country Wally mart was > able to "trump" local desires, here (Union County, North Carolina) we had a > WalMart that even broke ground for the building, and a local judge said > "no-way- Jose" that the zoning called for a single store, and a Wallmart is > so big, it has to be counted as a Mulit-store. and they stopped the > project, took away the equipment, and has a sign up, for sale for a single > store or farm.
Yeah, Wal-Mart blows. Maine is generally an amazing state when it comes to being anti-corporate, but the appelate court screwed us on this one. If a city isn't allowed to decide what parts of it are allowed to be zoned in what ways, who is? Some state environmental commission stocked with members appointed by the Wal-Mart-loving governor (who also happened to come up with that dumbass laptop proposal you have all probably heard about)? Lousy situation all around. Too bad I can't bear the South, else I'd probably dig your community. >And I did not pick exact prices, nor did I pic the top or bottom of the line > machine, just one to compare, and don't even know what Walmart really uses, > these prices are just guesses, so 10.00 on any part is just my own guess as > to what it would cost. I build my own systems (and so do a bunch of folks) > because I like to, and I like to know what is "under the hood" but if price > is the motivation, for resale, then I say consider the labor involved in > your price structure, is all. I try not to consider all developement "bad" > and try to co-exist with developments that seem deemed to work due to the > massive scale of human life on the planet. I don't paticularly like > WallyMart either, but I don't select one mega company over another, I try > and select which items are best for me. _I_ do not run a computer from > Micro-tel, but for an entry-level word-processor-e-mail-webbrowser,,,, Word. I feel where you're coming from and to tell you the truth I blame local businesses more than anyone else (including local consumers or Wal Mart) for the whole mess. Ignoring the price gouging, which is illegal, Wal Mart does honestly provide a service that local businesses simply refuse to compete with. The local businesses get their asses kicked and they deserve it. Instead of all trying to survive on their own playing David vs. Goliath against Wally's World they need to come together and find a way to market themselves collectively to compete with the megastores. I'm not saying merge the downtown into one corporation, but who's going to go shopping for a computer at a little Mom & Pop on the waterfront when they can shop from Wal Mart and pick what they want before they even leave the house? Local businesses need to combine their resources and produce product catalogs and perhaps even websites to market themselves competitively. Many people go to Wal Mart who would love to shop local simply because they know what Wal Mart has without having to drive to the store and look. I also have to admit that the lines I draw are quite arbitrary. I don't shop at Wal Mart under any circumstances, but I shop at Ames/KMart if I can't find what I need at a local business. I would be mortified to be caught in a Starbucks, but on the rare occasion I am in the mood for iced coffee I head straight for Dunkin Donuts. I don't buy my computers and almost never buy so much as a stapler from Best Buy or Office Depot, but I have no qualms about ordering online from some company that I am sure treats its workers no better (like newegg.com). I won't shop at Borders or Barnes & Noble but I used to order from amazon.com (one of the worst anti-labor corporations in the entire country) until I heard of powells.com and 100fires.com. So while I act like I've drawn all sorts of lines in the sand, all these distinctions are honestly pretty weak. That doesn't mean you'll see me lounging in a Starbucks tomorrow morning sipping a mocha latte, but it does mean I'll slowly try to move toward being more consistent with my values and finding more productive ways to express my politics. > When I was about 10 (1965) years old, my father ran a company that sold > beef to McDonald's all over the US. At a Christmas party, Ray Kroc was > there, and about 12 pm he was a little drunk, and sitting in a corner near > the Table (waiting for someone to come out of the restroom as I recall) and > I got to ask him "why make the "bigMac" which was kinda new. his answer > suprised me, since it was not anything you might expect this "father of > franchise" to answer. Instead, he said he was concerned that the fast life > of folks did not allow them a chance to get enough fruit of vegitable in > their diet, and this was a way to improve the amount of food other than > beef and bread in their diet. I don't eat McDonald's either, but at least I > always try and remember that a "mega-company" may not have bad intentions, > but may have someone at the helm who may not see the "big-Picture" the same > as I do. My Mother was a "Proof Reader" with a masters in english. when > Computers came along, she was out of a job she loved and had worked hard at > for years, But I don't blame Word Perfect Corp. That's a really neat story. I totally agree that people are rarely if ever the problem. There are almost no cases where there's actually a secret room full of rich old white men sitting around a table plotting the downfall of mandkind, it's usually just people who simply have an analysis of the world that misses out on something. Like WalMart offering consumers great low prices on everything but paying all their workers peanuts and buying as much as they can from countries where slave labor would be an improvement in standard of living. This doesn't mean I think the companies suck any less, but rather that I blame the whole profit motive much more than I blame any individual person. It's like Ken Lay taking the fall for Enron. Doesn't do any good to blame individuals because there are gaggles more like them waiting in the wings to come in and do the same thing all over again. Enron still sucks, though. > The folks that could not get a job at "Pop's Hardware" because they were > not related to "Pop" may not feel as bad about getting a job at walmart as > you do about a walmart being built. not all change is good, but not all > change is bad, either. No argument from me on this. I just want to close saying that I looked back on that email I sent and it came off as being pretty freaking pretentious. All apologies for that and thanks for the chill response. I still think my computer is cooler than yours, though, so HA! Take that, punk. Peace. Isaac "Don't think these record deals gonna feed your kids and pay your bills Because they not MC's get a little bit of love and think they hot Talkin' bout how much money they got, all y'all records sound the same I'm sick of that fake thug R & B rap scenario all day on the radio Same scenes in the video, monotonous material, y'all don't here me though These record labels slang our tapes like dope You can be next in line, and signed, and still be writing rhymes and broke Would you rather have a Lexus? Or Justice? A dream or some substance? A Beamer? A necklace? Or Freedom?" - Dead Prez, "Hip Hop"
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