-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sunday 14 December 2003 2:50 am, Melissa Reese wrote:
<ALERT! I feel another of those damned "Charlie's writing another book" moments approaching.> > Hi Guy, > > On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 10:33:09 PM PST, you wrote: > > Last night I spent an exasperating 6 hrs struggling with numerous > > issues. I'll submit them as bugs if appropriate. I feel these issues > > (and many more like them) are impediments to the widespread adoption > > of Linux as a desktop platform. I beg to differ here, but only in degree. The biggest impediment to widespread adoption of GNU/Linux as a desktop platform is user inertia. Especially the transitional user, those that aren't quite what's termed "Power Users" and raw recruits. The point that should not be forgotten would, in my humble opinion, be the amount of time and effort expended between "Oh, that's a computer" and "Oh, that's how you make the desktop/application do that." It wasn't always quite as easy as Microsoft tried to tell us, it's just that those thinking this way have forgotten the flashes of discovery along the way. It seems the users that fit the accepted "power user" definition have an even harder time. Things have gotten easy for them, they've discovered a "comfort zone" and inertia sets in shortly after that complacency. Are "Point and Click" tools available to make the transition from 'J.Q Raw User' to 'J.Q.User, Esq Power User' under Windows? For the most part yes. Are they available in a GNU/Linux distribution such as Mandrake Linux as well? Not to the same degree; any distribution's development team will always seem to assume the user has a minimal knowledge of certain basic tools/procedures to make that transition. Those that have made the transition from raw gnubie to even moderate proficiency are sometimes beset with their own brand of inertia. At least for a time. One that often appears as elitist. They done the "sweat the details, get stubborn, learn how to get where they want to be" experience, and they aren't always able to explain how they got there. They usually get over it, but not always. I've seen the same attitude and faux elitism displayed on some Windows user groups, mailing lists, and fora, that I've seen a few complain about here. With less back lash from the new recruits. For some reason those struggling to make the transition to "Power User" in Windows seem more forgiving of the "gurus" foibles. I'm fairly certain that this is a result of the social engineering that is Microsoft Marketing; but let's not go there today, yes? (-: - From this point I'm abbreviating Power User to P.U..<eg> > [snip] > > > But unfortunately the fit and finish on many things is wanting, and > > those less zealous than the people on this list will find Linux as a > > desktop frequently exasperating. Amazing. I won't disagree that making things "just so" while learning any GNU/Linux distribution can be a daunting task. I will however ask readers to recall that the average (if such can be said with any confidence) user making these comments is usually _not an average user._ Exasperating? Yes, probably. Impossible? Let's not overstate the facts here. Anything that can be done by a P.U. with a Windows desktop can be done, and more. Just in a different way with different tools. > As someone new to Linux, I'd like to thank you for your comments. I > installed Mandrake 9.2 onto my second hard drive almost a month ago, > and I'm still trying to sort out several things that seem like they > *should* have been fairly basic. I suppose the definition of "basic" in relation to 'personal confusers' is necessarily a subjective one Melissa. But remember how many things you've learnt and how much effort expended in finding the "simple Windows methods" to attain those goals. What has become instinctive for you in that operating system could possibly be even more so in Mandrake Linux but you'd have to invest the time and effort *again.* I definitely don't envy anyone that task, no matter how easy I find some things, especially as compared to the impressions of the raw talent I see just starting the journey. I do envy their future joys of discovery though. > I know that Linux is quite different from Windows, so I understand > that I have a lot to learn (with lots of help from many good people on > this list!), but I'm going to have to agree with your comments that I > quoted above. It takes a good bit of effort in often obscure > directions (and a Klingon-English dictionary!) to get even some very > basic things up and running. I'm working on that "geek2user" translation matrix, in the small amount of 'spare time' I budget myself, but it's a slow process. I'm sure others are working on it as well. When I've refined a few more pages/chapters I'll post all I have finished on the Community Wiki. Be patient, please. http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org > While there is lots of help available via lists like this one and a > few news groups, it can still be a little frustrating to have to send > out a request for help every time a new Klingon command is needed to > perform some procedure that I've been told I need, yet still don't > quite understand why...or even just what it's supposed to do. The command line requirements are so much less than they were even 2 years ago that a statement such as this surprises me...until I step back and recall what I had to do to get sound working under Mandrake 7.1. All command line stuff, now the only command is draksound; which can be reached from a GUI in the Mandrake Control Centre. Times have changed, and since this is GNU/Linux and Open Source Software we're discussing, the one absolute certainty is that change will be continuous. That change may occasionally be for the worse, but overall changes in OSS are for the better. > Over the past several years, I've had to learn how to tweak my Windows > systems - especially for security and privacy issues - and have become > pretty good at tinkering with it when I need to (though, after the > initial setup and keeping track of a few basic things along the way, I > really don't have to do much tweaking anymore). This paragraph reinforces what I posted above about transitional users. It isn't that you don't have to tweak any more, it's likely that it's so automatic that you just don't have to *think about it* any more. > Once I pretty much "figured out" Windows a few years ago, installing a > new OS and getting things tweaked to my preferences so I can just *do > stuff* is very quick and painless. I can and do tweak when I have to, > but tweaking and tinkering is *not* why I enjoy using a computer. > After hanging around Linux mail lists and news groups for over a month > now, it seems that for even experienced Linux users, tinkering can be > a fairly time consuming hobby in and of itself. I find myself wanting > to do other things...especially things away from the computer. Again; you invested the time needed to learn to do what you wanted to do with Windows. Nothing is or was automatic, nor should it be. Personalizing Mandrake shouldn't be any harder than the first time you 'tweaked' Windows; it's just different. > Then, there are people like my mother, who really could benefit from a > truly secure and stable system (well, here I must admit that my WinXP > is both faster and more stable than my Mandrake 9.2 on the very same > hardware). I can now see that getting her set up with a Linux system > she could "just get to work with" would be a rather daunting task > compared to getting a Windows system working reasonably well for her. > If Linux distros are ever going to really be able to compete with > Windows on the desktop, it's going to take a lot more than just a > small group of happy "tinker 'till you drop" enthusiasts who are quite > content to now and again sing choruses of "Linux rules, MS sucks!". I've never been a member of the Windows sucks crowd. I am a card carrying member of the "Microsoft's business policies and customer relations policies suck vacuum through a billion kilometre straw." crowd. But that's simply about control and who owns the rights to hardware and data/files of any kind that the customer has exchanged valuta for in good faith. Windows has it's place, so does OSS. The interfaces between the two have always been designed, usually from a clean slate to working, by the open source developers with less than no support or negative support from Microsoft. They don't play well with others, like any other playground bully. Having said all that; I have started quite a few people on Mandrake that were so "raw newbie" that they didn't know what a browser was, didn't know from e-mail except references on TV and in movies, and had no clue that there was anything called Open Source. Or an operating system. The usual first reaction when they see their new desktop is "Is that Windows?" My usual answer is; "No, it's so much more than that. It's your freedom to use this system I assembled for you _your way._" Proficiency is no more time consuming than early proficiency in Windows would be for these neophytes, since I don't have to help them break habitual response "reload, reboot, reinstall" patterns. AKA "Bad Habits." (-; > While I understand the unfortunate "vicious circle" reasons for it, I > still cannot deny that the range of truly useful and refined software > available for Windows remains a not altogether unimportant issue for > someone wanting to switch from Windows to Linux (or even for someone > ready to get their first computer with one or the other type of OS). > Even after lots of searching for comparable programs and tweaking what > I can, when I go from my Windows and the programs I have installed > there to my Mandrake and its programs, it feels like a definite "step > backwards" in terms of overall functionality and usefulness (and at > this point at least, speed and stability is an issue as well). That's your P.U. comfort zone talking Melissa, and you know it. Most of that "range of truly useful and refined software" has been developed by people that are paid to do so. If there was a market for that software under open source operating systems those developers might port their work over. Think Opera for example. That browser is free, but not open source, and anyone can download a free version for personal use. If you don't mind a 2"x1" advertising bar in the mix. Or for a modest fee it can be had with no ads. Unlike Microsoft, which as a corporate entity requires, expects, or demands control; most developers are happy to "play to the market" and build whatever demand tells them will put a roof over their heads. BTW a lot of that aforementioned useful software was written by "captive or co-opted developers" or companies that were embraced and extended out of existence by Microsoft. Think about it, it's that "who has control of what" factor again. > At the end of the day, all I really want is a tool (computer) that > does what I want in a way that pleases me, and I must admit, at this > point anyway, I can be persuaded to compromise my preferred principles > in favor of a truly slick set of tools. Whenever I say something like > that, I feel that I should qualify it by saying that other than the OS > itself, I really don't use any MS software, but lots of third party > software written for Windows systems. At the end of the day the people that voluntarily give of their time and expertise in the open source community want the same thing. It's not about abstract philosophy for most, it's about making choices for ourselves. It may be a way of life for some, but not all. No radical revolution here, mostly this is a very much slower process called evolution. The same holds true to a degree here and on other mailing lists and user help fora, people offer help freely, often out of a sense of obligation to the community, but mostly to themselves. A subconscious "To thine own self be true..." extended into a sense of general worth and sharing and community. That's as psychological/philosophical as I'll get on this one. <g> > I'm going to keep working on tweaking my Mandrake, and I may > eventually try other distros as well, but for the moment, I'm going to > have to continue the heresy of using Windows for my "mission-critical" > tasks, and also only recommend Linux desktop distros to the most > tinker happy hardy souls. I wish it weren't so, but that's how I'm > feeling about it right now. As long as you keep trying, fine. If it means anything to you or anyone else (and it shouldn't since it's only me ;~>) I think you can and will "find it" eventually. In my humble opinion, you and Guy both "get it" already. > Anyway...I'm always grateful for this list. Even when I'm not asking > specific questions, I'm learning many useful things from reading the > questions and answers of others. I'm always very busy color coding > messages for future reference! :-) > > Melissa > I for one am happy and grateful for any of the hardy souls on this and the other Mandrake lists. Even the ones that I've shown thinly veiled aggravation toward, because of what I perceived as a demanding tone in their questions. We are all volunteers here. I don't often accede to demands very well; and never without protest. But I do apologize. Sorry about that. (-: Being a member of a community focused on something positive is always it's own reward, and is all too rare in human history. Most societies and communities are, at heart, formed to be "against" something/someone. This one has a chance to be the blueprint to reverse that trend. Sorry for the "damn it, another book Charlie?" post. My warmest regards to all. All year long. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User #244963 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Linux release 9.2 (FiveStar) for i586 kernel 2.4.22-21mdk 09:18:40 up 2 days, 17:51, 1 user, load average: 0.13, 0.16, 0.17 I have a VISION! It's a RANCID double-FISHWICH on an ENRICHED BUN!! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/3K5GZqvqlrLPr5YRAo7dAKCe8iVRmNAlqicbzg6bovvUF9LefQCgtQUm 0r1sbF7RIiQF+mFcCySwsJc= =kp3T -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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