"Usually resorting to personal attacks means you have run out of arguments. It's a form of fallacy.", no, it's a lack of tolerance for stupidity.
"The example I gave was simplified for your benefit.". Case in point. You posted a moronic example without clarification. Therefore, I draw a fair and reasonable conclusion that you're a moron. "They both work for you then you are the problem." - really? I'm a line of business manager now. You're wrong. Again. "My argument is in IT and more specifically with PM rank and pay. I'm sure a PM in building move doesn't command same salary as IT PM." - in a pure IT company? Likely so. In industry? IT's "just another project" if you're doing it right. So you're wrong. Again. Noticing a trend yet? "You can't get out of your shell and see how my method...." - I've got more than 20 years experience with large and small, good and bad. I've seen plenty of methods. Usually from highly qualified folks that actually HAVE methods, not some random internet dude that claims "his" method. "The PM is just a middle man. Cut him out." - you're a dev, aren't you? Guess what? The world doesn't revolve around you. This statement from you, above all others, shows me your level of business incompetence. (Stick around, next reply I'll actually get personal). On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Usually resorting to personal attacks means you have run out of arguments. > It's a form of fallacy. > > The example I gave was simplified for your benefit. The example is based on > multi-million project for a 3bl company. > > The model you layout is exactly the problem. Contract dev from anywhere who > doesn't have vested interest in the project or any oversight can be the > single deciding factor for the project. No matter how good a PM is they > can't tell if the project is going down the right path when it comes to > development because they just don't understand. A Dev can tell a PM that > some thing is impossible. The PM won't know how to question that Dev to see > if it really is impossible or not. > > With my model a Dev Lead would be able to see problems before they come up > and direct the project. And if you have a Tech Lead who knows how to do > that. Somebody that doesn't code but directs instead then you don't really > need a PM. > > My argument is in IT and more specifically with PM rank and pay. I'm sure a > PM in building move doesn't command same salary as IT PM. > > They both work for you then you are the problem. You can't get out of your > shell and see how my method would work and be much more beneficial. In your > world anything a PM wants to do he has to ask the technical workers and then > act. The PM is just a middle man. Cut him out. This happens with countless > projects. PM schedules a meeting, gets everybody in a room to discuss the > matter at hand. When all is said and done the techi goes back to his desk > spends 30 minutes fixing a problem that they just spend talking about for 1 > hour. > > By the way what I'm suggesting isn't out of this world. It's being used at > many successful companies, for example Facebook. > > > --T > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Gary Slinger <gary.slin...@gmail.com>wrote: > >> ** You have no idea what you're talking about. >> >> PM, QA and imp team are all at corp HQ. Let's say it's in Houston. >> >> Dev's are outsourced. Tata, whatever. Pick one. They're in Mumbai. >> >> You really think that team is going to work for a lead 'developer"? A dev >> is still a dev. I can see a limited exception for somewhere like Microsoft. >> >> Suggesting as a baseline that the PM work for the dev is moronic, even in >> the tiny little one dev one PM example you give. >> >> Scale it out - suppose the PM has 30 projects, and ten of them aren't IT? >> (Building move, HVAC replace, conference spool up, etc.). >> >> Suppose this isn't IT? One PM, and pickhowevermany carpenters, >> bricklayers, plumbers, etc. The PM works for the 'business' (the GC or >> owner's rep, e.g. this case). >> >> PMI isn't the be all and end all, but it's scaleable generic project >> management. >> >> I'm neither a PM nor a Dev, by the way. >> >> They both work for me. >> ------------------------------ >> *From: * Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> >> *Date: *Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:51:26 -0700 >> *To: *NT System Admin Issues<ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >> *ReplyTo: * "NT System Admin Issues" < >> ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >> *Subject: *Re: PMI PMP Certification >> >> Easy >> 1 Lead Dev >> >> --T >> >> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Gary Slinger <gary.slin...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> ** I'm going to go and get some popcorn... >>> >>> How do you think that will play out when it's one PM, five concurrent dev >>> teams, a QA team and production implementation and operations folks? >>> >>> (And that's before I take 'PM' out of the 'just for IT' space). >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From: * Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> >>> *Date: *Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:44:24 -0700 >>> *To: *NT System Admin Issues<ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>> *ReplyTo: * "NT System Admin Issues" < >>> ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>> *Subject: *Re: PMI PMP Certification >>> >>> I agree my sample size is not sufficient that's why I'm asking what does >>> a project manager do? >>> >>> Here's an example. Project is running late and the CIO comes in the room >>> and says get this thing done. He's not talking to the project manager >>> because no matter what the project manager does if he's not skilled in the >>> particular software he can't get it done. So really the guy getting the job >>> done is the skilled worker. The one that has the technical knowledge. >>> >>> I'm suggesting the system is broken. In current business environment it >>> appears as the technical person is working for the project manager. I'm >>> saying it should be the other way around. The project manager should be >>> working for the technical guy. >>> >>> --Tigran >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Andrew S. Baker <asbz...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> True, but my real point was that just because you may appear to be >>>> surrounded by lots of ineffective *<insert job specification here>*, it >>>> doesn't mean that your sample size was sufficient to judge the validity of >>>> the entire discipline. >>>> >>>> To be honest, I've even managed to meet a few good lawyers. >>>> >>>> (For the record, I'm aware of more lousy or ineffective IT professionals >>>> than stellar ones...) >>>> >>>> >>>> * * >>>> >>>> *ASB* *http://about.me/Andrew.S.Baker* *Harnessing the Advantages of >>>> Technology for the SMB market… >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:32 PM, John Cook <john.c...@pfsf.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Isn’t that kind of like saying “you need smarter users”? If only I >>>>> could pick and choose……..**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> *John W. Cook***** >>>>> >>>>> *System Administrator***** >>>>> >>>>> *Partnership For Strong Families* >>>>> >>>>> *5950 NW 1st Place* >>>>> >>>>> *Gainesville, Fl 32607* >>>>> >>>>> *Office (352) 244-1610***** >>>>> >>>>> *Cell (352) 215-6944***** >>>>> >>>>> *MCSE, MCP+I, MCTS, CompTIA A+, N+, VSP**4, VTSP4***** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 4:18 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *To:* NT System Admin Issues >>>>> *Subject:* Re: PMI PMP Certification**** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> You need to be working with better project and program managers. >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> *ASB***** >>>>> >>>>> *http://about.me/Andrew.S.Baker***** >>>>> >>>>> *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market…***** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> wrote:*** >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> The only thing I see project managers do is schedule meetings, take >>>>> notes that nobody will see and get in the way of good technical >>>>> discussions. >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> ** ** >>>>> >>>>> Can somebody tell me why they need a cert program to use outlook? >>>>> >>>>> --Tigran**** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Jacob <ja...@excaliburfilms.com> wrote:** >>>>> ** >>>>> >>>>> Know the input and outputs for each process and the 30ish formulas. >>>>> The exam is not easy.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> If you have not applied for the test, you better get on it. If you are >>>>> lucky to get audited, I do not think you will be able to get it in by the >>>>> 31 >>>>> st. You also have to document 4500 hours of project management >>>>> experience.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> http://www.rmcproject.com/about/pmp-examination-changes.aspx**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Also, get Rita’s study guides. Worth it. >>>>> http://www.rmcproject.com/index.aspx**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> Jacob**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> *From:* John Hornbuckle [mailto:john.hornbuc...@taylor.k12.fl.us] >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 11:14 AM >>>>> *To:* NT System Admin Issues >>>>> *Subject:* OT: PMI PMP Certification**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> I was wondering if there were any certified PMPs out there that could >>>>> give me pointers on the exam.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> I had planned on taking it in around two months, but I just caught wind >>>>> of the fact PMI is changing it on August 31. So now I’m cramming to see >>>>> if I >>>>> can get it done before the change.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> I took two project management courses in grad school pretty recently, >>>>> and am currently reading a couple of PMP study guides.**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> John Hornbuckle**** >>>>> >>>>> MIS Department**** >>>>> >>>>> Taylor County School District**** >>>>> >>>>> www.taylor.k12.fl.us**** >>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ** >>>>> >>>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>>> >>>> --- >>>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>>> >>> >>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>> >>> --- >>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>> >>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>> >>> --- >>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>> >> >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >> >> --- >> To manage subscriptions click here: >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >> >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >> >> --- >> To manage subscriptions click here: >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >> > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > -- Gary K. Slinger Voice: 727-475-1947 // gChat gary.slin...@gmail.com // Skype: garyslinger Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/garyslinger ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ --- To manage subscriptions click here: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin
