Let me know when you grow up. --T
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Gary Slinger <gary.slin...@gmail.com> wrote: > "Usually resorting to personal attacks means you have run out of arguments. > It's a form of fallacy.", no, it's a lack of tolerance for stupidity. > > "The example I gave was simplified for your benefit.". Case in point. You > posted a moronic example without clarification. Therefore, I draw a fair > and reasonable conclusion that you're a moron. > > "They both work for you then you are the problem." - really? I'm a line of > business manager now. You're wrong. Again. > > "My argument is in IT and more specifically with PM rank and pay. I'm sure > a PM in building move doesn't command same salary as IT PM." - in a pure IT > company? Likely so. In industry? IT's "just another project" if you're > doing it right. So you're wrong. Again. Noticing a trend yet? > > "You can't get out of your shell and see how my method...." - I've got more > than 20 years experience with large and small, good and bad. I've seen > plenty of methods. Usually from highly qualified folks that actually HAVE > methods, not some random internet dude that claims "his" method. > > "The PM is just a middle man. Cut him out." - you're a dev, aren't you? > Guess what? The world doesn't revolve around you. This statement from you, > above all others, shows me your level of business incompetence. (Stick > around, next reply I'll actually get personal). > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Usually resorting to personal attacks means you have run out of arguments. >> It's a form of fallacy. >> >> The example I gave was simplified for your benefit. The example is based >> on multi-million project for a 3bl company. >> >> The model you layout is exactly the problem. Contract dev from anywhere >> who doesn't have vested interest in the project or any oversight can be the >> single deciding factor for the project. No matter how good a PM is they >> can't tell if the project is going down the right path when it comes to >> development because they just don't understand. A Dev can tell a PM that >> some thing is impossible. The PM won't know how to question that Dev to see >> if it really is impossible or not. >> >> With my model a Dev Lead would be able to see problems before they come up >> and direct the project. And if you have a Tech Lead who knows how to do >> that. Somebody that doesn't code but directs instead then you don't really >> need a PM. >> >> My argument is in IT and more specifically with PM rank and pay. I'm sure >> a PM in building move doesn't command same salary as IT PM. >> >> They both work for you then you are the problem. You can't get out of your >> shell and see how my method would work and be much more beneficial. In your >> world anything a PM wants to do he has to ask the technical workers and then >> act. The PM is just a middle man. Cut him out. This happens with countless >> projects. PM schedules a meeting, gets everybody in a room to discuss the >> matter at hand. When all is said and done the techi goes back to his desk >> spends 30 minutes fixing a problem that they just spend talking about for 1 >> hour. >> >> By the way what I'm suggesting isn't out of this world. It's being used at >> many successful companies, for example Facebook. >> >> >> --T >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Gary Slinger <gary.slin...@gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> ** You have no idea what you're talking about. >>> >>> PM, QA and imp team are all at corp HQ. Let's say it's in Houston. >>> >>> Dev's are outsourced. Tata, whatever. Pick one. They're in Mumbai. >>> >>> You really think that team is going to work for a lead 'developer"? A dev >>> is still a dev. I can see a limited exception for somewhere like Microsoft. >>> >>> Suggesting as a baseline that the PM work for the dev is moronic, even in >>> the tiny little one dev one PM example you give. >>> >>> Scale it out - suppose the PM has 30 projects, and ten of them aren't IT? >>> (Building move, HVAC replace, conference spool up, etc.). >>> >>> Suppose this isn't IT? One PM, and pickhowevermany carpenters, >>> bricklayers, plumbers, etc. The PM works for the 'business' (the GC or >>> owner's rep, e.g. this case). >>> >>> PMI isn't the be all and end all, but it's scaleable generic project >>> management. >>> >>> I'm neither a PM nor a Dev, by the way. >>> >>> They both work for me. >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From: * Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> >>> *Date: *Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:51:26 -0700 >>> *To: *NT System Admin Issues<ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>> *ReplyTo: * "NT System Admin Issues" < >>> ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>> *Subject: *Re: PMI PMP Certification >>> >>> Easy >>> 1 Lead Dev >>> >>> --T >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Gary Slinger <gary.slin...@gmail.com>wrote: >>> >>>> ** I'm going to go and get some popcorn... >>>> >>>> How do you think that will play out when it's one PM, five concurrent >>>> dev teams, a QA team and production implementation and operations folks? >>>> >>>> (And that's before I take 'PM' out of the 'just for IT' space). >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From: * Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> >>>> *Date: *Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:44:24 -0700 >>>> *To: *NT System Admin Issues<ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>>> *ReplyTo: * "NT System Admin Issues" < >>>> ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com> >>>> *Subject: *Re: PMI PMP Certification >>>> >>>> I agree my sample size is not sufficient that's why I'm asking what does >>>> a project manager do? >>>> >>>> Here's an example. Project is running late and the CIO comes in the room >>>> and says get this thing done. He's not talking to the project manager >>>> because no matter what the project manager does if he's not skilled in the >>>> particular software he can't get it done. So really the guy getting the job >>>> done is the skilled worker. The one that has the technical knowledge. >>>> >>>> I'm suggesting the system is broken. In current business environment it >>>> appears as the technical person is working for the project manager. I'm >>>> saying it should be the other way around. The project manager should be >>>> working for the technical guy. >>>> >>>> --Tigran >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Andrew S. Baker <asbz...@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> True, but my real point was that just because you may appear to be >>>>> surrounded by lots of ineffective *<insert job specification here>*, >>>>> it doesn't mean that your sample size was sufficient to judge the validity >>>>> of the entire discipline. >>>>> >>>>> To be honest, I've even managed to meet a few good lawyers. >>>>> >>>>> (For the record, I'm aware of more lousy or ineffective IT >>>>> professionals than stellar ones...) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> * * >>>>> >>>>> *ASB* *http://about.me/Andrew.S.Baker* *Harnessing the Advantages of >>>>> Technology for the SMB market… >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:32 PM, John Cook <john.c...@pfsf.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Isn’t that kind of like saying “you need smarter users”? If only I >>>>>> could pick and choose……..**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> *John W. Cook***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *System Administrator***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *Partnership For Strong Families* >>>>>> >>>>>> *5950 NW 1st Place* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Gainesville, Fl 32607* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Office (352) 244-1610***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *Cell (352) 215-6944***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *MCSE, MCP+I, MCTS, CompTIA A+, N+, VSP**4, VTSP4***** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Andrew S. Baker [mailto:asbz...@gmail.com] >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 4:18 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *To:* NT System Admin Issues >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: PMI PMP Certification**** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> You need to be working with better project and program managers. >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> *ASB***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *http://about.me/Andrew.S.Baker***** >>>>>> >>>>>> *Harnessing the Advantages of Technology for the SMB market…***** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Tigran K <tigr...@gmail.com> wrote:** >>>>>> ** >>>>>> >>>>>> The only thing I see project managers do is schedule meetings, take >>>>>> notes that nobody will see and get in the way of good technical >>>>>> discussions. >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> ** ** >>>>>> >>>>>> Can somebody tell me why they need a cert program to use outlook? >>>>>> >>>>>> --Tigran**** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 1, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Jacob <ja...@excaliburfilms.com> wrote:* >>>>>> *** >>>>>> >>>>>> Know the input and outputs for each process and the 30ish formulas. >>>>>> The exam is not easy.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have not applied for the test, you better get on it. If you are >>>>>> lucky to get audited, I do not think you will be able to get it in by >>>>>> the 31 >>>>>> st. You also have to document 4500 hours of project management >>>>>> experience.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.rmcproject.com/about/pmp-examination-changes.aspx**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, get Rita’s study guides. Worth it. >>>>>> http://www.rmcproject.com/index.aspx**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> Jacob**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* John Hornbuckle [mailto:john.hornbuc...@taylor.k12.fl.us] >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 01, 2011 11:14 AM >>>>>> *To:* NT System Admin Issues >>>>>> *Subject:* OT: PMI PMP Certification**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> I was wondering if there were any certified PMPs out there that could >>>>>> give me pointers on the exam.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> I had planned on taking it in around two months, but I just caught >>>>>> wind of the fact PMI is changing it on August 31. So now I’m cramming to >>>>>> see >>>>>> if I can get it done before the change.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> I took two project management courses in grad school pretty recently, >>>>>> and am currently reading a couple of PMP study guides.**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> John Hornbuckle**** >>>>>> >>>>>> MIS Department**** >>>>>> >>>>>> Taylor County School District**** >>>>>> >>>>>> www.taylor.k12.fl.us**** >>>>>> >>>>>> **** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ** >>>>>> >>>>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>>>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>>>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>>>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>>>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>>>> >>>> >>>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>>> >>>> --- >>>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>>> >>>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>>> >>>> --- >>>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>>> >>> >>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>> >>> --- >>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>> >>> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >>> >>> --- >>> To manage subscriptions click here: >>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >>> >> >> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ >> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ >> >> --- >> To manage subscriptions click here: >> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ >> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com >> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin >> > > > > -- > Gary K. Slinger > Voice: 727-475-1947 // gChat gary.slin...@gmail.com // Skype: garyslinger > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/garyslinger > > > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ > ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ > > --- > To manage subscriptions click here: > http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ > or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com > with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin > ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/> ~ --- To manage subscriptions click here: http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/ or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin
