I agree about the problem of MSCE. I worked for a company (that I wont name) where there was one guy whi had an MCSE qual. in VB, and his development skills were not that flash at all. I DO beleive that these days, whilst its no real reflection of our skills ness. but failing a Tertiery Qaul sme kind of MCSE qual is the next best thing for some of :-)
Jeremy p.s. before you bag .NET, dont forget it was the man behind Delphi who started it....ok, ok, he was prob. insain at the time, so there is SOME defence :-) -----Original Message----- From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:22:17 +1200 Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > Guys > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v 'Delphi' > Programmer is indicative > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't hire a > plumber > based on wether > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds for > Programmers with > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a person a > narrow > field > of vision and they get one. > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > certification as a 'Qualification', > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This is > starting > to invade academic institutions in > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific training > schools, You don't study 'Relational > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having > programmed in > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, Interbase, > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list for a C# > Job > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having been > screwed by M$ and bitching and > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another thinly > disguised > plot for world domination and their response.... > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put your > money > where your mouth was > > Neven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. The > only > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as to add > them > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they insist > on > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking every > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work anyway. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > *: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as well, > since > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first and > foremost, > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my CV/resume > with > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range of > languages > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, and > maybe > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the class > libraries > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to > decide on > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the remuneration. > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things like > Design > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that > knowledge of > a > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Conor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > there? > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open Road > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the market > than > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy there > are > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I don't > see > any > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the .Net > access > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - > Swing, > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't have > relevant > > experience. > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching language of > choice > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > institutions > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer about > $45K > and > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I > suspect > that > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi > software > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise that > seems to > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but I am > biased. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus C# and > the > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception (by > those > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better > programmers > and > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get paid > more > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do essentially > the > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars in the > bank. > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market place? > How do > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it pay > better > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would hope > so. > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely used in > NZ > and > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct perception > - > are > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and > vb.net? > Is > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > something > used > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less people > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Dave Jollie > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > J: 09 306 6801 > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~ > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > This communication contains information that is confidential and the > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please > delete > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 > 9205441 > > immediately. 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