Well, my only quibble about VB 6.0 was the fact that it wasn't properly object oriented (no inheritance for crying out loud).
Now that VB.Net is out though, I am rapidly finding it difficult to objectively justify my opinion that VB is an ugly dirty, little language. I mean, yes it supports some horrible syntax but then again Delphi supports goto (goto? For goodness sake). Back in the day, we taught Delphi in stage 2 at the University (I was tutor, not lecturer thank goodness). A few years later, because some people thought the language was a bit of a strain on the students' addled brains (sigh) we moved to (shudder) VB 6.0. We recently moved to VB.Net which was great improvement (at least you can teach object-orientation) however I have been a move to advocating C# for ages. My justification? Well, the problem with .Net (Delphi.Net, VB.Net, C# COBOL.Net etc) is that you can't say "well, it's more efficient" or "well you can do more stuff". Because it's all .Net. So, I am afraid to say, my bias towards Delphi and/or C# is purely a syntax fetish and has nothing to do with the expressiveness or the power of the language. Stephen > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Middlemiss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 10:03 a.m. > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > Someone once said "VB makes the easy things easier, Delphi makes the hard > things easier". I wonder how many of the VB "Programmers" are competent > software designers, and how many are just playing "plug the pieces > together"... > > While it's true that you can do both with Delphi, I get the impression > from > the Delphi community that, generally, Delphi is used as a more "serious" > tool by more informed developers. I think that Delphi is *perceived* as > more > of a professional tool, and that VB is perceived as being easier for the > newbie programmer. This is, of course, the perception that I think the > developers have, not the management. > > Phil. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Sugrue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > It amazes me that Commodores outsell Falcons too, but what can I say the > > world is full of idiots who listen to marketing over fact. > > > > Just be glad we are the informed minority, and push Delphi's cause as > > often as possible. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf Of Neven MacEwan > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 July 2003 9:11 am > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > Trevor > > > > The only thing to add is that in a world dominated by Microsoft > > the fact that Delphi exists is testament to how good it is. > > > > But it amazes me that we are outnumbered 3 to 1 by VB Programmers > > > > Neven > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Trevor Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out there? > > > > > > > Sorry for over-quoting, but I think I must jump in and have a little > > rant > > of > > > my own and use all of the previous posts as context...so I'm going to > > leave > > > them there. > > > > > > I don't have much of an idea of how saleable my skills are as a Delphi > > > programmer, and I don't really care. I know that I have a reputation > > for > > > delivering software (that works) to MY CUSTOMERS on time, within > > budget, > > and > > > often with extra functionality that was not requested in the original > > > spec...but has since been shown to be advantageous in the product that > > that > > > my customers use. > > > > > > I don't have very many customers, but those I have typically have an > > IT > > > department that is very respectful of what a Delphi developer can spit > > out. > > > > > > My colleagues and I will frequently express a CAN-DO attitude that > > other > > > developers that write code for the same systems (but in other > > languages) > > > cannot match. > > > > > > The customers (board room people) then end up with an impression of > > Delphi > > > projects succeeding while other projects sometimes fail. > > > > > > Most of what we do exists in a heterogenous hardware/software/OS > > > environment. Some of the files that we have to read and write are > > coded > > > using EBCDIC. We have to handle tremendous data volumes. The > > software > > > changes frequently and has to handle change management. > > > > > > Any computer language could probably do what we do, and there will be > > many > > > pros and cons of what any particular design/development > > > environment/methodology has to offer. > > > > > > There's a big BUT. > > > > > > The big but is that my customers are biased towards getting Delphi > > programs > > > to do stuff. They are confidernt that the Delphi program will work, > > and > > it > > > will be cheap to develop.This comes from a history of delivery and > > success. > > > We get a lot of respect from our customers simply because we use > > Delphi as > > a > > > development tool. > > > > > > So, there are a few NZ firms that think that if you write code in > > Delphi, > > it > > > is going to work, it is probably going to easier to modify, and it is > > > probably going to be able to address virtually any weird requirement > > that > > > you can throw at it. Although I am probably guilty of embellishing > > the > > > truth from time to time (of course we can make it run on Linux....of > > course > > > we can make it run on .NET), the general perception is that the Delphi > > parts > > > of the system can do whatever is required. > > > > > > If the customers like it, then what better perception could you ask > > for? > > > > > > Scout > > > > > > P.S., please don't screw up the customer perception by writing crap > > code. > > > Of course you wouldn't, would you? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Neven MacEwan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:21 AM > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > This brings to mind 2 on 'Nevens' Laws (and I hope some of my > > clients > > > don't > > > > read this) > > > > > > > > 1/ Anyone who work for "Internal" IT departments do so because they > > don't > > > > have the ability > > > > to work for an outsource provider > > > > > > > > 2/ "No one got fired for buying IBM", 70's Mantra has been replaced > > with > > > "No > > > > one got fired for buying Microsoft" > > > > > > > > Also I don't really have a problem with MSSQL, its a good product, > > but > > > what > > > > amazes me is M$ by there own > > > > admission didn't have a half decent dev system (which is the > > motivation > > > > behind C#) and they still dominate and > > > > secondly given their track record in untrustworthyness it appears > > thatr > > > > corporates have swallowed hook line > > > > there .NET spin, We didn't require .NET to get platform portability > > across > > > > M$ platforms we needed M$ to put > > > > more effort into fixing the problems, but M$ have lauched a pseudo > > JVM > > > > killer which can be bent to there own > > > > desires and 'we' are buying in not saying piss off > > > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "James Low" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:04 AM > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > You probably will (flame). > > > > > > > > > > The Java vs Delphi vs C# etc debate exists because more and more > > > decision > > > > > makers (those purchasing software) see the language/ platform > > developed > > > > in > > > > > as a key consideration in risk management. I have worked for > > several > > > TLAs > > > > > who insist on SQL Server database based solutions and VB as the > > > > development > > > > > tool. Why? Because the idiots making the purchase decisions have > > little > > > or > > > > > no understanding of the software industry and perceive that if the > > most > > > > > common tools are chosen then anyone else can pick up the crappy > > software > > > > and > > > > > fix it when it breaks. All software needs to be fiddled with ... > > > ofcourse. > > > > > No investigation of any of the more standard metrics of software > > quality > > > > ... > > > > > if its developed in pure MS tools it has to be good or at least > > fixable. > > > > > > > > > > Using the same thought processes they will not consider > > openoffice, > > > linux > > > > > based servers or developing a wqeb site in PHP ... or anything > > based > > > upon > > > > > opensource componentry etc etc ... its a perception thing; aided > > in no > > > > small > > > > > part by the huge marketting power of MS, blatant lies about > > relative > > > > quality > > > > > of commercial vs opensource, the assumption that the latest costly > > tools > > > > are > > > > > "better" and the comfort zone of many people. > > > > > > > > > > Whatdya do? If MS is not to become a complete monopoly you > > demonstate > > in > > > > > your own products etc that other tools can do the job. Pose > > obvious > > > > > questions about the consequences of pure monopolies and make as > > part > > of > > > > your > > > > > career development a commitment to more than just the almighty $$. > > > > > Professionals are meant to retain a degree of open mindedness; the > > > ability > > > > > to critically appraise situations and advise their clients > > objectively. > > > I > > > > > would have thought slavishly buying into one tool/ language/ > > company > > was > > > > not > > > > > entirely professional. And, objectively, there are probably merits > > in > > > each > > > > > tool/ language/ company which are far less significant than other > > > aspects > > > > of > > > > > the problem and solution domains. > > > > > > > > > > Just had to get that off my chest .... > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Neven MacEwan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 26 June 2003 9:22 a.m. > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > Subject: Re: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys > > > > > > > > > > I might start a flame fest here but this 'Java' Programmer v > > 'Delphi' > > > > > Programmer is indicative > > > > > of the malaise that is infecting this industry. You wouldn't hire > > a > > > > plumber > > > > > based on wether > > > > > they'd used a certain brand of tap recently so why do we see adds > > for > > > > > Programmers with > > > > > C#, ADO, MSSQL...skills required, basically they a wanting a > > person a > > > > narrow > > > > > field > > > > > of vision and they get one. > > > > > > > > > > Mind you the other thing that pisses me off is the rise of product > > > > > certification as a 'Qualification', > > > > > MSCE is not a qualification it is a product knowledge test. This > > is > > > > starting > > > > > to invade academic institutions in > > > > > the US as well, They are at risk of become product specific > > training > > > > > schools, You don't study 'Relational > > > > > Database Theory' you are more likely to do Oracle 101. Having > > programmed > > > > in > > > > > Basic, Pascal, SmallTalk, C++, > > > > > Delphi, Dataflex, TCL, PHP, Java & VBScript and used MSSQL, > > Interbase, > > > > > PostgreSQL with ODBC, ADO, BDE > > > > > It would be interesting to note I wouldn't make the short list for > > a > > C# > > > > Job > > > > > > > > > > Is C#/.NET making inroads? It appears so, The 'IT' industry having > > been > > > > > screwed by M$ and bitching and > > > > > moaning to this effect have seen Microsoft launch another thinly > > > > disguised > > > > > plot for world domination and their response.... > > > > > reach for the vaseline boys 'cause you wouldn't want actually put > > your > > > > money > > > > > where your mouth was > > > > > > > > > > Neven > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "Multiple recipients of list offtopic" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 1:46 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conor, I like your way of looking at it - makes a lot of sense. > > The > > > only > > > > > > thing is getting the exposure to the different languages so as > > to > > add > > > > them > > > > > > as keywords to the CV. Dabbling at home doesn't count if they > > insist > > > on > > > > > > commercial experience in X language, so it's a matter of taking > > every > > > > > > opportunity to get exposure to something new - the way I work > > anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the feedback guys. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > > > *: 09 306 6801 > > > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Boyd, Conor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 9:12AM > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It maybe depends on what way somebody looks at themselves as > > well, > > > since > > > > > > you've got to sell yourself for any potential job? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd consider myself an OO developer/engineer/consultant first > > and > > > > > foremost, > > > > > > and then the language becomes a secondary issue. I write my > > CV/resume > > > > with > > > > > > that in mind. It maybe also helps me to have a reasonable range > > of > > > > > languages > > > > > > (Delphi, Java, VB6, VB.NET & C#) as keywords in my CV as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO it's mainly syntax that differentiates between Java & C#, > > and > > > maybe > > > > > > Delphi too. Having a rough idea about the contents of the class > > > > libraries > > > > > > for each language helps, and after that, it's really up to me to > > > decide > > > > on > > > > > > the trade-off between a particular job on offer and the > > remuneration. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe having skills such as UML or OOA&D, or knowledge of things > > like > > > > > Design > > > > > > Patterns & Unit Testing, etc helps reduce the influence that > > knowledge > > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > particular language maybe has on the salary on offer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Conor > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Stephen Bertram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 8:35 a.m. > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > Subject: RE: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi > > out > > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > From our experience (we are doing Delphi / Java / C# / C / Open > > Road > > > > > > development) there are more competent Java programmers in the > > market > > > > than > > > > > > Delphi, but they ask a lot more. As C# is still in its infancy > > there > > > > are > > > > > > few experienced developers around, but a lot of wannabes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are only using C# as Delphi.Net is still 6 months away - I > > don't > > > see > > > > > any > > > > > > real advantage in the language over Delphi yet apart from the > > .Net > > > > access > > > > > > and good training resources. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main issues of Java is that there are many subsets - > > Swing, > > > > > > servelets, JSP, J2EE, .... and we find many candidates don't > > have > > > > relevant > > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There seems to be a general shift to Java as the teaching > > language > > of > > > > > choice > > > > > > with a couple of notable exceptions teaching in Delphi. A few > > > > > institutions > > > > > > still teach in C++. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The employment agencies put an intermediate Delphi programmer > > about > > > $45K > > > > > and > > > > > > Java & C# $55K, though I have little faith in their figures. I > > > suspect > > > > > that > > > > > > they devalue Delphi candidates due to the small number of Delphi > > > > software > > > > > > houses, but this may change with the flood of Java expertise > > that > > > seems > > > > to > > > > > > be coming from Europe and the US. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally I still favour Delphi as the language of choice, but > > I am > > > > > biased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 25 June 2003 6:46 a.m. > > > > > > To: Multiple recipients of list offtopic > > > > > > Subject: [DUG-OFFTOPIC]: What is the perception of Delphi out > > there? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The .net email list has just had a discussion on VB.NET versus > > C# > > and > > > > the > > > > > > merits of each. An interesting comment was that the perception > > (by > > > those > > > > > > employing) is that C# programmers are better trained, better > > > programmers > > > > > and > > > > > > that VB is a toy language. The result is that C# programmers get > > paid > > > > more > > > > > > than vb.net programmers even though both languages can do > > essentially > > > > the > > > > > > same things. Perception is everything when it comes to dollars > > in > > the > > > > > bank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question - what is the perception of Delphi in the market > > place? > > > How > > > > do > > > > > > employers rate it when compared to other languages? And does it > > pay > > > > better > > > > > > or worse than other languages? Will Octane improve this - would > > hope > > > so. > > > > > > I've personally had the impression that Delphi is not widely > > used in > > > NZ > > > > > and > > > > > > that the sites are few and far between - is this a correct > > > perception - > > > > > are > > > > > > Delphi programmers in the minority when compared to Java, c# and > > > vb.net? > > > > > Is > > > > > > this a good thing or a bad thing? Sometimes specialization in > > > something > > > > > used > > > > > > less, can pay more (if the work is around), as there are less > > people > > > > > > competing for the work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Jollie > > > > > > Developer, TOWER NZ IT > > > > > > > > > > > > *: 09 368 4259 > > > > > > J: 09 306 6801 > > > > > > *: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > *: 46 Parnell Rd, Parnell, Auckland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ~~~~ > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > This communication contains information that is confidential and > > the > > > > > > copyright of enSynergy Limited or a third party. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are not the intended recipient of this communication > > please > > > > delete > > > > > > and destroy all copies and telephone enSynergy Limited on +64 9 > > > 9205441 > > > > > > immediately. 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