Joseph Cochran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >It also seems to make it *much* cheaper for the producer, because
> >they don't have to pay for months worth of game design and
> >playtesting.
>
> I disagree with this for two reasons:
>
> 1) Great IP's won't necessarily fit into a formula (which is
> in one sense what the D20 rules), particularly if their genre
> doesn't match that of the formula. I mean, look at the Matrix or
> Tom Clancy's novels. Both are great settings for roleplaying, but
> I don't think D20 would be my first choice. Game companies have
> many creative people in them who are capable of tailoring the
> needs of the IP, and if they're going to have to alter D20 or
> OGL, you're already wasting that "saved effort".
*ANYTHING* can fit into d20; to wit--
Tom Clancy's modern military-political setting just needs some new classes,
and adjustment of feats, and backstory.
The Matrix can be expressed just as simply; the existing classes can be
altered a bit, and while "magic" is different, it's simply a matter of
focusing on skills and feats rather than magic. Also simple.
The advantage to this? Current RPG players don't have to learn a new system,
and thus picking up the game is that much easier.
> 2) Cheapest for a publisher is to use the system its
> designers know best. They don't want to pay for months of testing
> for their designers to learn someone else's system, either.
So, hollywood and big book publishers who've never written an in-house RPG
before should...?
Bad argument, me thinks.
> In any case, the expense of it may not be worth the
> return if the IP drives the sales (which is my thesis).
"thesis?" I didn't know you wrote a paper on the subject. "belief" or
"argument" is more approrpriate, given the informal nature of this list.
> Most assuredly WotC paid Lucas. No movie studio in their
> right mind would seek out a RPG publisher: the return for the
> effort isn't that high. For the same editorial effort, they
> could make 1000 times the money (or more) on trinkets.
The question probably isn't "who paid who" (they're both getting some of the
money from publishing, I bet) but "who approached who." Did Lucas's people
approach WotC after WEG folded, or did WotC approach Lucas's people? Or did
Lucas's people place a variety of solicitations, and WotC made the best
offer...
> But once again, it's the IP that would drive those
> sales, NOT the D20 system. A new LotR release will expand the
> awareness of LotR into the mainstream, and THAT would drive
> sales. Nobody'd care about it being D20. MERPers who already have
> ICE's stuff aren't going to flock to the stores to buy D20 MERP:
> heck, it'd probably be flogged beyond death on usenet. But sales
> would be great because of the IP.
And sales would be BETTER if it could be used with D&D. That's all that d20
is, after all--a marketing tool to associate a product with D&D to the
"network" of D&D players.
> Your experience is what is known as anecdotal evidence, and
> is statistically meaningless. Name me ANY published rule system,
> and I will find someone who has done the same thing. The simple
> fact is that not every ruleset is right for every person, and that
> as a whole, gamers modify rules all the time. Your experience lends
> no credibilty to any argument about the strength of the D20
> ruleset, and neither does mine.
Well, since we're all inexperience goobs, we'll just have to argue from logic
and reason instead of reputation... save for the few professionals, who can
play their credentails as a trump card to silence winey newbie naysayers.
*grin*
> >Now when the rules subtract from the roleplaying experience, you
> >have one indication that there are some problems with the system.
>
> No, you don't. See above. Only when a statisically large
> portion of the population has this problem is your assertion true.
Acutally, his assertion makes sense. In fact, a slight parahrase makes even
more sense.
"If the rules subtract from the roleplaying experience, then they are a
problem."
> But how many Shadowrun players would feel that FASA had
> sold out to WotC and stop buying products? If there are two of
> them to one of you, FASA shouldn't do it. If there is even ONE of
> them to one of you, it's not worth the extra development cost.
For an established game like Shadowrun, GURPS, or the like, you're probably
right. But for a game who's setting/story is stronger than its rules (White
Wolf, Macross/Robotech) I would think the positive reaction from being "like
D&D" outweighs the problem with "being different."
I'll expect to see conversion rules or one-shot products (like GURPS:Vampire)
incorporating d20, rather than wholesale changes--at least until the groups
can get some sales figures and customer feedback.
It's not an ego thing. There may BE an ego thing, but
> that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that there is
> inherent value in a ruleset that is wholly owned by a company,
> and that it is more valuable to a company to build upon the
> value of their own designers' work than it is to build on the
> work of someone else. The more GURPS books that there are, the
> more value the GURPS rules have, and the more brand value SJ
> Games has. The more Storyteller books that there are, the more
> value White Wolf has.
Not books, sales. There were plenty of AMAZING ENGINE books, but I wager that
the first printing is what's still in stock at the WotC online store...
"Sales", "Players", or "Market presense" make a brand recognizable, not simply
having a useless myriadd of books. (Note the single biggest complain against
2e--that there are so many books!)
> And here's the rub: the more D20 books there are, the more
> value **WotC** has. Why is another publisher going to build
> WotC's brand over its own?
Because d20 grants them value, as well. I tried _Dead Lands_ once, and hated
it... but if _Dead Lands d20_ came out, I'd buy that--and if I liked the
setting, I'd buy more _Dead Lands_ books.
DM
Looking for a game? I DM in Upstate NY, twice a month at Artemis Games in New
Hartford, NY (a suburb of Utica)
Even better, I've got irregular games where I live, in Charlton (near Albany).
Drop me a line and we'll game!
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AIM: Planesdragon ICQ: 26106342
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