In Europe, politicians are afraid to make errors, they are not able to judge if a specification has a high quality. So they go for standards. This is in many countries like this.
That is why HL7 always try to standardize their efforts, and the higher the better. In Europe you go first to your national body, then to the European body, then to ISO. Alternatives with a little bit less status are Oasis, W3, OMG, and also from there you can go to ISO. I have never heard that OpenEhr tried to become a standard. In these ten years, they never did, or they did it in silence, or I just missed it, was on holiday when the announcement was done. But if I am right, then is that a reason why it will never become important on government-level in the Netherlands. And in many other countries this is the same. No politician in the Netherlands wil ever invest millions in a specification which did not made it to ISO. That is why the Netherlands invested 500 millions Euro in a HL7v3 standard. Because it is an ISO standard, or it was in the traject to become one. Really, 500 millions Euro, half a billion Euro. Just for a message system for the Netherlands, based on HL7v3. And the laugh, it failed. But that doesn't matter, the politicians are safe, they favored ISO standards. The companies are safe, they got their money, got well paid, and did what they were asked for. No one ever got fired for choosing an ISO standard. Why did it fail? Ten years they had spent 50 million Euro, every year. It is a long story, but I can summarize it in a few words. I think they did not want to succeed. They failed for political reasons, they did not want to do concessions with the majority in parliament. So the parliament blew it off. They had chosen to fail. It would be good for the OpenEhr developing companies if a OpenEhr did more to be acceptable for governments. Bert Op vrijdag 24 oktober 2014 heeft Dra Carola Hullin Lucay Cossio < carolhullin at hotmail.com> het volgende geschreven: > Dear All, > > Please take this observation as a help DISCUSSION rather a critic: but the > standards difinition is not an awareness issues, instead is a GAP between > contexts. > In Latino America and Caribe, there is minimal understanding of what a > standard is....as displayed on Pablo?s answer, so the real use of openEHR > never is achieved because of this gap. > > I was last week in INFOLAC2014 ,where the goverment of Uruguay and several > local authorities discussed about standards but the issue was a different > one. So, I believe that OpenEHR as foundation and its initial team of > founders of this conceptual and technical framework should lead the > training contents and validity that developing countries are using. > > I was surprise that Uruguay invested 4 million dollars and the concept of > openEHR was missing: lost of investment again. > > http://www.agesic.gub.uy/innovaportal/file/1443/1/agesic_agendadigital_2011_2015.pdf > > > Hope this contextual information help to get a good quality training > package from the foundation so then it can be shared around the world. > > Cheers Carol > (LATAM) > > > > ------------------------------ > From: pazospablo at hotmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pazospablo at hotmail.com');> > To: bert.verhees at rosa.nl > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bert.verhees at rosa.nl');>; > openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 19:23:40 +0000 > > Bert, I'm aware of the definition and I use terms in a very specific > way, I said standard because that definition fits what openEHR is. > > > Anyway, we are not discussing definitions but a much broader subject: > the board being silent in front on community efforts that need them. > > > Pablo Pazos > > www.CaboLabs.com > > ------ Original message------ > > *From: *Bert Verhees > > *Date: *Fri, Oct 24, 2014 4:17 PM > > *To: *openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>; > > *Subject:*Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > OpenEHR is not a standard, it is a formal specification. > > http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards.htm > ISO, What is a standard: > > "A standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, > guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that > materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose." > > On 24-10-14 19:20, pablo pazos wrote: > > Thanks for your message Stefan. > > I understand the organizational time does not accompanies the time of > the community needs. > > For me is very odd that in one hand the Foundation wants to spread the > standard but in the other do not endorse anyone on the training side. > > Educators & trainers want to spread the standard also, and sometimes > just saying "the foundation supports us" and have a web page with our name > as "endorsed trainers" allows us to access places that we can't access > alone, like government working groups. And training people in government is > a great way of having the standard included in call for proposals for > projects, and that leads to the industry to catch up. Then the industry > will need people to work in delivering tools that implements the standard, > and that people needs training, and so on. *We can create this virtuous > circle but we need help.* > > For me, training is the best way of spreading the standard and for the > openEHR-ES community that seem to work for the last 4 years that I'm giving > the course in spanish. And others follow, like the openEHR-BR community, > some of them were my students now they have their own openEHR course in > portuguese (awesome!). > > > I'm not sure what's the formal way of putting these issues under the > consideration of the board(s) and get any feedback from them. > > -- > Kind regards, > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > http://cabolabs.com <http://cabolabs.com/es/home> > > ------------------------------ > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 09:52:22 +0200 > From: sauermann at technikum-wien.at > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sauermann at technikum-wien.at');> > To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > CC: pazospablo at hotmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pazospablo at hotmail.com');>; > openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>; > openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > > Dear Pablo! > Within IHE wee seem to have a similar situation, "educators" working along > providing training, trying to expain to the "institutional layer", asking > the institution to take formal measures, so that training and probably even > exams and certification are harmonised across subgroups and regions. Over > the years something has sunk in, and we may see an IHE "Education" group > sometime soon. This however took some years until both educators and > "institutional layers" knew why and how they might benefit from each other. > In that way I can understand your experience > So: There seems to be independent multi-site evidence that "education" is > a "political" issue. > > This may help or not, let us all keep the spirit high! > Greetings from Vienna, > Stefan > > Stefan Sauermann > > Program Director > Biomedical Engineering Sciences (Master) > > University of Applied Sciences Technikum Wien > Hoechstaedtplatz 5, 1200 Vienna, Austria > P: +43 1 333 40 77 - 988 > M: +43 664 6192555 > E: stefan.sauermann at technikum-wien.at > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','stefan.sauermann at technikum-wien.at');> > > I: www.technikum-wien.at/mbe > I: www.technikum-wien.at/ibmt > I: www.healthy-interoperability.at > > Am 23.10.2014 09:27, schrieb pablo pazos: > > Hi Sam, > > I think we are coordinating this already :) IMO that's the point of > having the wiki pages and asking colleagues to add content, proposals and > comments. > > I think the idea of a key note is great, and I want to collaborate in > any way I can, but... as you an others may know, I asked several times for > endorsement and support (not talking about money) from the foundation on > the training side, to standardize the contents, to have a formal way of > certification, and spread the standard, but the board went silent. I'm very > pragmatic and I don't know why this is so difficult, for me this is treated > in a very political way and should be something technical. > > With that being said, for me, talking about training under the > foundation banner is at least weird. > > Maybe this is not a good place or time to mention this, but is how I > honestly feel about the proposal. > > I long to see the work I try to do to create awareness about the > standard to be supported by the foundation. To be honest, the only support > I got is from the Chilean Association of Healthcare Informatics (ACHISA) > with whom I'm very thankful because without them I wouldn't be able to > create the first online course 100% about openEHR in spanish and provide it > to more than 140 people from 15 countries. > > > -- > Kind regards, > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > http://cabolabs.com <http://cabolabs.com/es/home> > > ------------------------------ > From: sam.heard at openehrfoundation.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sam.heard at openehrfoundation.org');> > To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2014 05:48:00 +0000 > CC: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>; > openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > > Hi All > > It would be good to coordinate this and try and get a full range of > options available - clinical and technical. > Clearly there are a few people who have already done work in South America > who might want to coordinate. > > I would hope that we may be able to get a key note if we are able to > promote this idea. Perhaps a group of speakers on what they are doing with > openEHR under the Foundation banner. > > I am very interested to know who will be attending and would like to > present on any openEHR activity. I am happy to coordinate and make this > list available to anyone interested. > > sam.heard at openehrfoundation.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sam.heard at openehrfoundation.org');> > > Cheers, Sam > > *From:* Shinji KOBAYASHI > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skoba at moss.gr.jp');> > *Sent:* ?Wednesday?, ?22? ?October? ?2014 ?12?:?46? ?AM > *To:* For openEHR clinical discussions > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > *Cc:* For openEHR technical discussions > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>, For > openEHR implementation discussions > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > > Hi Pablo, and all > > Thank you for cooperation. I am working on the developers' workshop > proposal based on the last proposal to MEDINFO2013. Please modify and > add your description for your project. > The Spanish tutorial sounds muy bien. > > Shinji > > > 2014-10-21 23:06 GMT+09:00 pablo pazos <pazospablo at hotmail.com> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pazospablo at hotmail.com');>: > > Hi! > > > > I was about to send a message to the lists to coordinate the tutorials > > topics to minimize overlap. > > > > Thanks for creating the page Shinji! That will help a lot for doing that > > coordination. > > > > I'll add a list of topics and anyone can mark his/her preference for > giving > > a tutorial about it, so we can detect collisions. > > > > > > For the spanish speakers, the MedInfo organization wants to have some > > tutorials in spanish to encourage the LatAm community to participate in > the > > conference. Also until december they have a preferential price for LatAm > > colleagues (still pricey but it's MedInfo :). > > > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > > > -- > > Kind regards, > > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > > http://cabolabs.com > > > >> From: skoba at moss.gr.jp > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skoba at moss.gr.jp');> > >> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 22:56:46 +0900 > >> Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > >> To: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> CC: openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');>; > >> openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > > > >> > >> Dear colleagues, > >> > >> I updated Wiki description about MEDINFO 2015 and made the developers' > >> workshop 2015 page. > >> http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/resources/MEDINFO+2015 > >> > >> Could you all please take a look and add comments or describe your plan? > >> > >> > >> Shinji KOBAYASHI > >> > >> 2014-08-05 10:22 GMT+09:00 pablo pazos <pazospablo at hotmail.com> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pazospablo at hotmail.com');>: > >> > Of course! I should have think of Jussara before. I'll talk with her > and > >> > her > >> > fellow openEHR.br colleagues to see if we can get this organized. > >> > > >> > BTW, just to start the coordination I would like to do a workshop > >> > focused on > >> > openEHR data store and query. And if there's interest, another one > >> > focused > >> > on UI: generation, manipulation, processing, models, etc. (we're > >> > presenting > >> > a paper on this topic at the InfoLac congress, this year is in > Uruguay! > >> > lucky me: http://infolac2014.org/index.php/en/) > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kind regards, > >> > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > >> > http://cabolabs.com > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: sam.heard at oceaninformatics.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sam.heard at oceaninformatics.com');> > >> > To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');>; > >> > openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > >> > Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 08:30:32 +0000 > >> > CC: openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Pablo > >> > > >> > I wonder if Jusara could organise a submeeting in an academic/industry > >> > forum > >> > prior to MedInfo? > >> > > >> > Cheers Sam > >> > > >> > Sent from Windows Mail > >> > > >> > From: pablo pazos > >> > Sent: ?Saturday?, ?2? ?August? ?2014 ?9?:?06? ?AM > >> > To: For openEHR clinical discussions, For openEHR technical > discussions > >> > Cc: For openEHR implementation discussions > >> > > >> > Thanks for the info Heather! > >> > > >> > I think we should do something similar to the previous workshops for > >> > devs, > >> > something simple to get newcomers to understand how to work with > >> > archetypes > >> > in software (parsing, processing, validating data, extracting paths, > >> > etc), > >> > and more specific topics for skilled openEHR devs (persistence > options, > >> > REST > >> > APIs, querying, reporting, UI generation, ...). > >> > > >> > I would love to see a hands-on tutorial in which we can program live > and > >> > help newcomers to pass the first barrier in openEHR software > >> > development: > >> > lose the fear of archetypes. > >> > > >> > Also I would like to know how we want to present this, should we > submit > >> > the > >> > proposals individualy and then organize or should we coordinate and > make > >> > one > >> > proposal with all the workshops/tutorials? > >> > > >> > Thanks! > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kind regards, > >> > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > >> > http://cabolabs.com > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: heather.leslie at oceaninformatics.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','heather.leslie at oceaninformatics.com');> > >> > To: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>; > >> > openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > Subject: RE: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > >> > Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 01:54:59 +0000 > >> > CC: openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > Hi Pablo, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We have kept info on Conferences in the wiki: > >> > http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/resources/Conferences > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > See Medinfo 2013: > >> > > >> > > http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/resources/MEDINFO+2013+-+Copenhagen,+Denmark > <http://www.openehr.org/wiki/display/resources/MEDINFO+2013+-+Copenhagen%2c+Denmark> > . > >> > 2 half day sessions were held then ? one clinical modelling focussed > and > >> > the > >> > other technical > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Regards > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Heather > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > From: openEHR-technical > >> > [mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical-bounces at > lists.openehr.org');> > ] > >> > On Behalf Of pablo pazos > >> > Sent: Friday, 1 August 2014 12:14 AM > >> > To: openeh technical; openEHR Clinical > >> > Cc: openehr implementers > >> > Subject: RE: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Shinji! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > By chance, do you have the agendas of the previous openEHR developer's > >> > workshops? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > It would be nice to see what has been done, do a little bit of > >> > introduction > >> > workshops for beginners and do some new cool stuff for skilled openEHR > >> > devs. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > BTW, maybe a good place to coordinate and share info about ideas would > >> > be > >> > the openEHR wiki. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks! > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kind regards, > >> > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > >> > http://cabolabs.com > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > > >> > From: skoba at moss.gr.jp > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','skoba at moss.gr.jp');> > >> > Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2014 10:25:16 +0900 > >> > Subject: Re: MedInfo 2015 openEHR tutorials > >> > To: openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > CC: openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-technical at lists.openehr.org');>; > >> > openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openehr-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > Hi Pablo and all, > >> > > >> > We had developers' workshop at Medinfo2007, 2010 and 2013, and I > >> > organized > >> > developers' workshop 2010, and 2013. > >> > > >> > I think the combination of clinical workshop/tutorial half day and > >> > developers' workshop half day would be better. > >> > > >> > I have to write up until the tutorial/workshop dead line, 15 Jan, > 2015. > >> > > >> > Shinji KOBAYASHI > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > 2014-07-29 13:52 GMT+09:00 pablo pazos <pazospablo at hotmail.com> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','pazospablo at hotmail.com');>: > >> > > >> > Hi all! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Since next MedInfo is in Brazil (near Uruguay) I'll be attending for > >> > sure. I > >> > also might present a paper or two and want to propose an openEHR > related > >> > tutorial. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Is other people planning to present openEHR papers or tutorials? It > >> > would be > >> > great if we can coordinate tutorials (and topics) together so we can > >> > have > >> > our "openEHR day" at MedInfo. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What do you think? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We have 1 year to plan this, and that's not a lot of time! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > I hope we can join forces and do something nice for the south american > >> > openEHR community. We are eager to learn from others that already have > >> > openEHR working in the real world, and learn from their success and > >> > failures. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Kind regards, > >> > Eng. Pablo Pazos Guti?rrez > >> > http://cabolabs.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > openEHR-clinical mailing list > >> > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ openEHR-technical > >> > mailing > >> > list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ openEHR-clinical > mailing > >> > list openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ openEHR-implementers > >> > mailing > >> > list openEHR-implementers at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-implementers at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-implementers_lists.openehr.org > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > openEHR-technical mailing list > >> > openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > > >> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> openEHR-clinical mailing list > >> openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > >> > >> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > openEHR-clinical mailing list > > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-clinical mailing list > openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > _______________________________________________ openEHR-clinical mailing > list openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-clinical at lists.openehr.org');> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-clinical_lists.openehr.org > > > This body part will be downloaded on demand. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > openEHR-technical mailing listopenEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-technical at > lists.openehr.org');>http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > > > > _______________________________________________ openEHR-technical mailing > list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > _______________________________________________ openEHR-technical mailing > list openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','openEHR-technical at lists.openehr.org');> > http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org > -- *This e-mail message is intended exclusively for the addressee(s). 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