Tom, I think the more the merrier! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Eugelink Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 17:04 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
I was already working on getting some screenshots of a security application written in JFX (mentioned its development a few months ago). It's a purchasable product, so screenshots should be possible. I'm only curious if it will make a nice showcase, since it mainly is used to show camera images. On 2013-07-28 02:38, Jonathan Giles wrote: > This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this morning with > Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may get something > underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends on the community getting > in touch with us and letting us talk about them - so much of the JavaFX world > is behind corporate firewalls, where talking about your work is generally > frowned upon. In any case, for those of you that can talk about your work, > please email one of us off-list. > -- Jonathan > Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity. > > "John C. Turnbull" <[email protected]> wrote: >> +1 >> >> Such a site could be very useful. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel >> Zwolenski >> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56 >> To: Pedro Duque Vieira >> Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List >> Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?) >> >> The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the Swing >> Sightings >> page) has been raised before and I think is a good one. >> >> It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't up to it >> in my opinion. >> >> Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience site as >> it partners nicely with the links of the week? >> >> >> >> On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira >> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co >>> >>> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section? Or does >> it >>> not have the necessary requirements to be in it? >>> >>> Thanks, best regards, >>> >>> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with >>> references to >>>> real world usecases. >>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull >>>> <[email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a criticism of >>>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the entire >>>>> community, are doing an awesome job. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or actual) can >>>>> be >>>> blown >>>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really capable of. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras (whose >>>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21). With >>>>> Oracle Ensemble >>>> we >>>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls and >>>>> that it at least supports very simple animations. With JFXtras >>>>> Ensemble we can see that very nice controls are possible but >>>>> unfortunately many of these are >>>> of >>>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you would >>>>> use in everyday business apps. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What else is there? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who frequently >>>>> post awesome controls and code snippets but we really need >> something >>>>> that >>>> brings >>>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase. Preferably a whole suite >>>>> of >>>> killer >>>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is absolutely >>>>> worth >>>> it. >>>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX or even >>>>> get a handle on its true potential. I can promise people that >>>>> more advanced things are "possible" but given that they write the >>>>> cheques, they need to see it for themselves. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites? There must be >>>>> big companies out there using it right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous >>>>> potential for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -jct >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12 >>>>> To: John C. Turnbull >>>>> Cc: Richard Bair; [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should use JFX >>>>> because of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to make it >>>>> do that (e.g. in enterprise space we have >>>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html) >>>>> >>>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually using it, >>>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it >>>>> >>>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app deployment and >> the >>>>> true cross-platform-ness of html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use it on >>>>> a real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with performance >>>>> (broad interpretation of the term, not 'framerate'), crippling >>>>> deployment and >>>> auto >>>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise button, >>>>> coming in >>>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a lack of >>>>> best practices for things like how to do CAD-like diagrams (not so >>>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input, >> layering, >> dragging, etc). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show in >>>>> these >>>> forums. >>>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be the >>>>> platform I develop on, it has the potential to be awesome, but >>>>> things (that seem obvious and small to me) completely stop it from >>>>> being usable in a real world situation for me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their guts >>>>> out, >>>> clearly >>>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are small-ish >>>>> blocks >>>> that >>>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole lot of >>>>> effort >>>> be >>>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi platform >>>>> support (that's more important than iOS/Android, really?), web >>>>> deployment >>>> patches, >>>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about. Obviously >>>>> your priorities are coming from somewhere different to ours, but >> the >>>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that definitely adds >> to >>>>> the frustration. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I actively >>>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the area >> that >>>>> has the >>>> potential >>>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete easier with >>>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if that ends >> up >>>>> working >>>> (a >>>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then it will >>>>> seep >>>> back >>>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop deployment >>>>> options will need to be improved before that's even a possibility. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target audience >> for >>>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who the >> primary >>>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any less >>>>> frustrating. I >>>> keep >>>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform somewhere >>>>> along >>>> the >>>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to John's. >>>>> JavaFX >>>> is >>>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the types >>>>> of apps >>>> I >>>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems, enterprise/backoffice >>>> systems, >>>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it will >>>>> be, but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas >>>>> that would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors (primarily >>>>> JavaScript based solutions) are improving rapidly in the areas >> where >>>>> they have traditionally been weak. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull < >>>> [email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Richard, >>>>> >>>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across as >> really >>>> ANGRY! >>>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration. >>>>> >>>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to convince >> my >>>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX. They ask me questions >> like: >>>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did with >>>>> JMF, >>>> Java3D, >>>>> JOGL etc. ?" >>>>> >>>>> I say: >>>>> >>>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun." >>>>> >>>>> They say: >>>>> >>>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples out >>>>> there right?" >>>>> >>>>> And I say: >>>>> >>>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble." >>>>> >>>>> They say: >>>>> >>>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do simple >>>>> animations but what about more complex things like Flash?" >>>>> >>>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference. >>>>> >>>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just that >>>>> they need >>>> to >>>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle transitions. I >>>>> can't >>>> even >>>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats. They don't >>>>> have >>>> the >>>>> resources to fund me to develop something more sophisticated but >>>>> they >>>> tell >>>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I tell >> them) >>>>> then where are all the examples? >>>>> >>>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is >> production >>>> ready >>>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable to >>>> demonstrate >>>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of people >>>>> (and I >>>> mean >>>>> big companies) actually using it. >>>>> >>>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies in a >>>>> similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long term and that >> it >>>>> is only >>>> really >>>>> suitable for form based applications. Then of course there is the >>>>> whole >>>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another story... >>>>> >>>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests in >>>>> developing >>>> a >>>>> true showcase application for JavaFX. Something that >>>>> non-technical >>>> people >>>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money goes) can >>>>> look at it and go "wow!". >>>>> >>>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can show >>>>> them >>>> with >>>>> JavaFX at the moment. >>>>> >>>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is from >>>>> the perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world problems >>>>> and people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites etc.) >>>>> and not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch. >>>>> >>>>> It's quite the opposite actually. >>>>> >>>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX and have >>>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I want it to >>>>> be a >>>> massive >>>>> success. As I have said before, there are plenty of people who >>>>> praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues that are >>>>> restricting its adoption. I just think we have to face these >> issues >>>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat industry. >>>>> >>>>> -jct >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> ] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40 >>>>> To: John C. Turnbull >>>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; [email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD? >>>>> >>>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of >>>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there that >> can >>>>>> be really impressive at times. I have not seen ONE such example >> in >>>> JavaFX! >>>>> Point to one? >>>>> >>>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall or >>>>> movies on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're >>>>> not interested in >>>> the >>>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly? Different >>>>> people (on this >>>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's important >>>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most people >>>>> would deride the dancing cat as being totally irrelevant to the >>>>> types of applications they're trying to build (the basis for much >> of >>>>> flash animations is shape >>>> morphing, >>>>> you can find some code here >> https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764). >>>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL. Drawing >>>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now, >>>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've already >>>>> commented on the memory overhead (which would continue to be an >>>>> issue even if the drawing part of the problem were solved). >>>>> >>>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is about 300k >>>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc >>>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is negligible on >>>>> the FX side, dirty opts >>>> is >>>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow. >>>>> >>>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms] >>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass >>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass >>>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering >>>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph >>>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed >>>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted >>>>> Counters: >>>>> Nodes rendered: 306565 >>>>> Nodes visited during render: 306565 >>>>> >>>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the drawing would >>>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing, I >>>>> could send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I had >>>>> a modern GL I could >>>> do >>>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms available >>>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes don't >>>>> implement the >>>> non-AA >>>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and uploading of >>>> pixels, I >>>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being spent >> here. >>>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that the >>>>> entire grid >>>> is >>>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks like only >>>>> a small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's really a >> minor >>>>> thing, as >>>> I >>>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I >>>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right now it >>>>> is totally not implemented (in NGShape): >>>>> >>>>> public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) { >>>>> // We don't support aliased shapes at this time >>>>> } >>>>> >>>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this amazing >> demo". >>>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes. Where >> does >>>>> the system start to fall over?". >>>>> >>>>> Richard= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Pedro Duque Vieira
