Something I guess would go on such a page?

http://fxexperience.com/2013/08/javafx-hd-menus-on-raspberrypi/

On Aug 1, 2013, at 3:21 AM, Anton Epple <toni.ep...@eppleton.de> wrote:

> Great idea, there's a site that does the same for NetBeans Platform Apps:
> 
> https://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html
> 
> I can tell from my own experience that it helps a lot in discussions with 
> customers to show them that NASA, NATO, Boeing, UNO, US Army, and many others 
> are building on top of NB Platform. 
> 
> From the maintainer of this site, I know there's a lot of work involved 
> though, and you have to be very active in identifying users, and reaching out 
> to them. It's definitely not sufficient to wait for users to submit their 
> applications. Sometimes it can take a couple of years from first contact to a 
> screenshot. That said it's absolutely worth it, and I would volunteer to help 
> in any way I can.
> 
> Toni 
> 
> --
> Anton Epple
> 
> 
> 
> Am 28.07.2013 um 02:38 schrieb Jonathan Giles <jonathan.gi...@oracle.com>:
> 
>> This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this morning with 
>> Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may get something 
>> underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends on the community getting 
>> in touch with us and letting us talk about them - so much of the JavaFX 
>> world is behind corporate firewalls, where talking about your work is 
>> generally frowned upon. In any case, for those of you that can talk about 
>> your work, please email one of us off-list.
>> -- Jonathan
>> Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity.
>> 
>> "John C. Turnbull" <ozem...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> Such a site could be very useful.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net
>>> [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Daniel
>>> Zwolenski
>>> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
>>> To: Pedro Duque Vieira
>>> Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
>>> Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
>>> 
>>> The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the Swing
>>> Sightings
>>> page) has been raised before and I think is a good one.
>>> 
>>> It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't up to it
>>> in my
>>> opinion.
>>> 
>>> Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience site as
>>> it
>>> partners nicely with the links of the week?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira
>>> <pedro.duquevie...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
>>>> 
>>>> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section? Or does
>>> it
>>>> not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks, best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with
>>>> references to
>>>>> real world usecases.
>>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull
>>>>> <ozem...@ozemail.com.au
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a criticism of
>>>>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the entire
>>>>>> community, are doing an awesome job.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or actual) can
>>>>>> be
>>>>> blown
>>>>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really capable of.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras (whose
>>>>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21).  With Oracle
>>> 
>>>>>> Ensemble
>>>>> we
>>>>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls and that
>>> 
>>>>>> it at least supports very simple animations.  With JFXtras Ensemble
>>> 
>>>>>> we can see that very nice controls are possible but unfortunately
>>>>>> many of these are
>>>>> of
>>>>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you would
>>>>>> use in everyday business apps.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What else is there?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who frequently
>>>>>> post awesome controls and code snippets but we really need
>>> something
>>>>>> that
>>>>> brings
>>>>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase.  Preferably a whole suite of
>>>>> killer
>>>>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is absolutely
>>>>>> worth
>>>>> it.
>>>>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX or even
>>>>>> get a handle on its true potential.  I can promise people that more
>>> 
>>>>>> advanced things are "possible" but given that they write the
>>>>>> cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites?  There must be
>>>>>> big companies out there using it right?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous potential
>>> 
>>>>>> for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -jct
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zon...@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
>>>>>> Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should use JFX
>>>>>> because of
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to make it do
>>> 
>>>>>> that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
>>>>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually using it,
>>>>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app deployment and
>>> the
>>>>>> true cross-platform-ness of html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use it on a
>>> 
>>>>>> real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with performance
>>>>>> (broad interpretation of the term, not 'framerate'), crippling
>>>>>> deployment and
>>>>> auto
>>>>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise button,
>>>>>> coming in
>>>>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a lack of
>>>>>> best practices for things like how to do CAD-like diagrams (not so
>>>>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input,
>>> layering,
>>> dragging, etc).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show in these
>>>>> forums.
>>>>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be the
>>>>>> platform I develop on, it has the potential to be awesome, but
>>>>>> things (that seem obvious and small to me) completely stop it from
>>>>>> being usable in a real world situation for me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their guts out,
>>>>> clearly
>>>>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are small-ish
>>>>>> blocks
>>>>> that
>>>>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole lot of
>>>>>> effort
>>>>> be
>>>>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi platform
>>>>>> support (that's more important than iOS/Android, really?), web
>>>>>> deployment
>>>>> patches,
>>>>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about. Obviously
>>>>>> your priorities are coming from somewhere different to ours, but
>>> the
>>>>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that definitely adds
>>> to
>>>>>> the frustration.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I actively
>>>>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the area
>>> that
>>>>>> has the
>>>>> potential
>>>>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete easier with
>>>>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if that ends
>>> up
>>>>>> working
>>>>> (a
>>>>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then it will
>>>>>> seep
>>>>> back
>>>>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop deployment
>>>>>> options will need to be improved before that's even a possibility.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target audience
>>> for
>>>>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who the
>>> primary
>>>>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any less
>>>>>> frustrating. I
>>>>> keep
>>>>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform somewhere
>>>>>> along
>>>>> the
>>>>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to John's.
>>>>>> JavaFX
>>>>> is
>>>>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the types of
>>> 
>>>>>> apps
>>>>> I
>>>>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems, enterprise/backoffice
>>>>> systems,
>>>>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it will be,
>>> 
>>>>>> but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas that
>>>>>> would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors (primarily
>>>>>> JavaScript based solutions) are improving rapidly in the areas
>>> where
>>>>>> they have traditionally been weak.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
>>>>> ozem...@ozemail.com.au
>>>>>> <mailto:ozem...@ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Richard,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across as
>>> really
>>>>> ANGRY!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to convince
>>> my
>>>>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX.  They ask me questions
>>> like:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did with JMF,
>>>>> Java3D,
>>>>>> JOGL etc. ?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I say:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They say:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples out
>>>>>> there right?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And I say:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> They say:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do simple
>>>>>> animations but what about more complex things like Flash?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just that they
>>> 
>>>>>> need
>>>>> to
>>>>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle transitions.  I
>>>>>> can't
>>>>> even
>>>>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats.  They don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>> the
>>>>>> resources to fund me to develop something more sophisticated but
>>>>>> they
>>>>> tell
>>>>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I tell
>>> them)
>>>>>> then where are all the examples?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is
>>> production
>>>>> ready
>>>>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable to
>>>>> demonstrate
>>>>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of people (and
>>> 
>>>>>> I
>>>>> mean
>>>>>> big companies) actually using it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies in a
>>>>>> similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long term and that
>>> it
>>>>>> is only
>>>>> really
>>>>>> suitable for form based applications.  Then of course there is the
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another story...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests in
>>>>>> developing
>>>>> a
>>>>>> true showcase application for JavaFX.  Something that non-technical
>>>>> people
>>>>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money goes) can
>>>>>> look at it and go "wow!".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can show
>>>>>> them
>>>>> with
>>>>>> JavaFX at the moment.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is from the
>>> 
>>>>>> perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world problems and
>>>>>> people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites etc.) and
>>>>>> not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's quite the opposite actually.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX and have
>>>>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I want it to
>>>>>> be a
>>>>> massive
>>>>>> success.  As I have said before, there are plenty of people who
>>>>>> praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues that are
>>>>>> restricting its adoption.  I just think we have to face these
>>> issues
>>>>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat industry.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -jct
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.b...@oracle.com
>>>>>> <mailto:richard.b...@oracle.com> ]
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
>>>>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>>>>> <mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of
>>>>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there that
>>> can
>>>>>>> be really impressive at times.  I have not seen ONE such example
>>> in
>>>>> JavaFX!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Point to one?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall or movies
>>> 
>>>>>> on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're not
>>>>>> interested in
>>>>> the
>>>>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly? Different people
>>> 
>>>>>> (on this
>>>>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's important
>>>>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most people
>>>>>> would deride the dancing cat as being totally irrelevant to the
>>>>>> types of applications they're trying to build (the basis for much
>>> of
>>>>>> flash animations is shape
>>>>> morphing,
>>>>>> you can find some code here
>>> https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL. Drawing
>>>>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now,
>>>>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've already
>>>>>> commented on the memory overhead (which would continue to be an
>>>>>> issue even if the drawing part of the problem were solved).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is about 300k
>>>>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc
>>>>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is negligible on
>>>>>> the FX side, dirty opts
>>>>> is
>>>>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
>>>>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
>>>>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
>>>>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
>>>>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
>>>>>> Counters:
>>>>>>      Nodes rendered: 306565
>>>>>>      Nodes visited during render: 306565
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the drawing would
>>>>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing, I could
>>> 
>>>>>> send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I had a
>>>>>> modern GL I could
>>>>> do
>>>>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms available
>>>>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes don't
>>>>>> implement the
>>>>> non-AA
>>>>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and uploading of
>>>>> pixels, I
>>>>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being spent
>>> here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that the entire
>>> 
>>>>>> grid
>>>>> is
>>>>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks like only a
>>> 
>>>>>> small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's really a
>>> minor
>>>>>> thing, as
>>>>> I
>>>>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I
>>>>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right now it is
>>> 
>>>>>> totally not implemented (in NGShape):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
>>>>>>      // We don't support aliased shapes at this time
>>>>>>  }
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this amazing
>>> demo".
>>>>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes. Where
>>> does
>>>>>> the system start to fall over?".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Richard=
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Pedro Duque Vieira
> 

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