Excerpts from Richard Raseley's message of 2015-11-09 10:34:26 -0800: > From this operator’s perspective this is exactly the element of community > culture that, by encouraging the proliferation of projects and tools, is > making the OpenStack landscape more complex and less > {user,operator,architect,business decision maker} friendly.
I'd agree with you that looking at all of the "OpenStack projects" as "OpenStack" will make you go cross-eyed. However, I think if you start with the guides and documentation, that is where the homogeneous, settled parts of the platform reside that some people might call OpenStack's "product". Once a thing starts to work well and is accepted by early adopters, it gets fleshed out documentation, and there's usually not a large decision tree presented in there by that time. If, however, you have more aggressive needs, then I think you have to build on top of that platform and look at the greater landscape with a focus toward solving specific problems. For instance, autoprovisioning, and accept that it may not be clear what way works well. > > In my opinion, it is essentially a manufactured and completely unnecessary > distinction. I look forward to the day when, through some yet to be known > mechanism, we have have a more focused product perspective within the > community. > > > On Nov 9, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Tim Hinrichs <t...@styra.com> wrote: > > > > They shouldn't be combined because they can each be used without the other. > > That is, they each stand on their own. > > > > Congress can be used for monitoring or delegating policy without attempting > > to correct violations (i.e. without needing workflows). > > > > Mistral can be used to make complex changes without writing a policy. > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 8:57 AM Adam Young <ayo...@redhat.com> wrote: > > On 11/09/2015 10:57 AM, Tim Hinrichs wrote: > >> Congress happens to have the capability to run a script/API call under > >> arbitrary conditions on the state of other OpenStack projects, which > >> sounded like what you wanted. Or did I misread your original question? > >> > >> Congress and Mistral are definitely not competing. Congress lets people > >> declare which states of the other OpenStack projects are permitted using a > >> general purpose policy language, but it does not try to make complex > >> changes (often requiring a workflow) to eliminate prohibited states. > >> Mistral lets people create a workflow that makes complex changes to other > >> OpenStack projects, but it doesn't have a general purpose policy language > >> that describes which states are permitted. Congress and Mistral are > >> complementary, and each can stand on its own. > > > > And why should not these two things be in a single project? > > > > > > > >> > >> Tim > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 6:46 AM Adam Young <ayo...@redhat.com> wrote: > >> On 11/06/2015 06:28 PM, Tim Hinrichs wrote: > >>> Congress allows users to write a policy that executes an action under > >>> certain conditions. > >>> > >>> The conditions can be based on any data Congress has access to, which > >>> includes nova servers, neutron networks, cinder storage, keystone users, > >>> etc. We also have some Ceilometer statistics; I'm not sure about whether > >>> it's easy to get the Keystone notifications that you're talking about > >>> today, but notifications are on our roadmap. If the user's login is > >>> reflected in the Keystone API, we may already be getting that event. > >>> > >>> The action could in theory be a mistral/heat API or an arbitrary script. > >>> Right now we're set up to invoke any method on any of the python-clients > >>> we've integrated with. We've got an integration with heat but not > >>> mistral. New integrations are typically easy. > >> > >> Sounds like Mistral and Congress are competing here, then. Maybe we > >> should merge those efforts. > >> > >> > >>> > >>> Happy to talk more. > >>> > >>> Tim > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 9:17 AM Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> Excerpts from Dolph Mathews's message of 2015-11-05 16:31:28 -0600: > >>> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > Excerpts from Clint Byrum's message of 2015-11-05 10:09:49 -0800: > >>> > > > Excerpts from Doug Hellmann's message of 2015-11-05 09:51:41 -0800: > >>> > > > > Excerpts from Adam Young's message of 2015-11-05 12:34:12 -0500: > >>> > > > > > Can people help me work through the right set of tools for this > >>> > > > > > use > >>> > > case > >>> > > > > > (has come up from several Operators) and map out a plan to > >>> > > > > > implement > >>> > > it: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Large cloud with many users coming from multiple Federation > >>> > > > > > sources > >>> > > has > >>> > > > > > a policy of providing a minimal setup for each user upon first > >>> > > > > > visit > >>> > > to > >>> > > > > > the cloud: Create a project for the user with a minimal quota, > >>> > > > > > and > >>> > > > > > provide them a role assignment. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > Here are the gaps, as I see it: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > 1. Keystone provides a notification that a user has logged in, > >>> > > > > > but > >>> > > > > > there is nothing capable of executing on this notification at > >>> > > > > > the > >>> > > > > > moment. Only Ceilometer listens to Keystone notifications. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > 2. Keystone does not have a workflow engine, and should not be > >>> > > > > > auto-creating projects. This is something that should be > >>> > > > > > performed > >>> > > via > >>> > > > > > a Heat template, and Keystone does not know about Heat, nor > >>> > > > > > should > >>> > > it. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > 3. The Mapping code is pretty static; it assumes a user entry > >>> > > > > > or a > >>> > > > > > group entry in identity when creating a role assignment, and > >>> > > > > > neither > >>> > > > > > will exist. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > We can assume a special domain for Federated users to have > >>> > > > > > per-user > >>> > > > > > projects. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > So; lets assume a Heat Template that does the following: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > 1. Creates a user in the per-user-projects domain > >>> > > > > > 2. Assigns a role to the Federated user in that project > >>> > > > > > 3. Sets the minimal quota for the user > >>> > > > > > 4. Somehow notifies the user that the project has been set up. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > This last probably assumes an email address from the Federated > >>> > > > > > assertion. Otherwise, the user hits Horizon, gets a "not > >>> > > authenticated > >>> > > > > > for any projects" error, and is stumped. > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > How is quota assignment done in the other projects now? What > >>> > > > > > happens > >>> > > > > > when a project is created in Keystone? Does that information > >>> > > > > > gets > >>> > > > > > transferred to the other services, and, if so, how? Do most > >>> > > > > > people > >>> > > use > >>> > > > > > a custom provisioning tool for this workflow? > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > I know at Dreamhost we built some custom integration that was > >>> > > > > triggered > >>> > > > > when someone turned on the Dreamcompute service in their account > >>> > > > > in our > >>> > > > > existing user management system. That integration created the > >>> > > > > account > >>> > > in > >>> > > > > keystone, set up a default network in neutron, etc. I've long > >>> > > > > thought > >>> > > we > >>> > > > > needed a "new tenant creation" service of some sort, that sits > >>> > > > > outside > >>> > > > > of our existing services and pokes them to do something when a new > >>> > > > > tenant is established. Using heat as the implementation makes > >>> > > > > sense, > >>> > > for > >>> > > > > things that heat can control, but we don't want keystone to > >>> > > > > depend on > >>> > > > > heat and we don't want to bake such a specialized feature into > >>> > > > > heat > >>> > > > > itself. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I agree, an automation piece that is built-in and easy to add to > >>> > > > OpenStack would be great. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I do not agree that it should be Heat. Heat is for managing stacks > >>> > > > that > >>> > > > live on and change over time and thus need the complexity of the > >>> > > > graph > >>> > > > model Heat presents. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > I'd actually say that Mistral or Ansible are better choices for > >>> > > > this. A > >>> > > > service which listens to the notification bus and triggered a > >>> > > > workflow > >>> > > > defined somewhere in either Ansible playbooks or Mistral's workflow > >>> > > > language would simply run through the "skel" workflow for each user. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > The actual workflow would probably almost always be somewhat site > >>> > > > specific, but it would make sense for Keystone to include a few > >>> > > > basic > >>> > > ones > >>> > > > as "contrib" elements. For instance, the "notify the user" piece > >>> > > > would > >>> > > > likely be simplest if you just let the workflow tool send an email. > >>> > > > But > >>> > > > if your cloud has Zaqar, you may want to use that as well or > >>> > > > instead. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Adding Mistral here to see if they have some thoughts on how this > >>> > > > might work. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > BTW, if this does form into a new project, I suggest naming it > >>> > > > Skeleton[1] > >>> > > > >>> > > Following the pattern of Kite's naming, I think a Dirigible is a > >>> > > better way to get users into the cloud. :-) > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > lol +1 > >>> > > >>> > Is this use case specifically for keystone-to-keystone, or for > >>> > federation > >>> > in general? > >>> > >>> The use case I had in mind was actually signing up a new user for > >>> a cloud (at Dreamhost that meant enabling a paid service in their > >>> account in the existing management tool outside of OpenStack). I'm not > >>> sure how it relates to federation, but it seems like that might just be > >>> another trigger for something similar, though not exactly the same? A > >>> federated user would also presumably need things like a default network, > >>> for example, though it may not need anything added to the keystone > >>> database. > >>> > >>> > As an outcome of the Vancouver summit, we had a use case for mirroring a > >>> > federated user's project ID from the identity provider cloud to the > >>> > service > >>> > provider cloud. The goal would be that a user can burst into a second > >>> > cloud > >>> > and immediately receive a token scoped to the same project ID that > >>> > they're > >>> > already familiar with (which implies a role assignment of some sort; for > >>> > example, member). That would have to be done in real time though, not > >>> > by a > >>> > secondary service. > >>> > > >>> > And with shadow users, we're looking at creating an identity (basically, > >>> > nothing but a user_id) in the second cloud anyway. And as another > >>> > consequence of shadow users, they wouldn't be getting a "federated > >>> > token" > >>> > of any sort, but rather a simpler, local token, referencing a local > >>> > identity (the user_id that was just created automatically). > >>> > > >>> > Adam, does any of this align with your use case? > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > Doug > >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > [1] https://goo.gl/photos/EML6EPKeqRXioWfd8 (that was my front > >>> > > > yard..) > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > __________________________________________________________________________ > >>> > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >>> > > Unsubscribe: > >>> > > openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > >>> > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > >>> > > > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________________________________ > >>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >>> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > >>> > >>> > >>> __________________________________________________________________________ > >>> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >>> Unsubscribe: > >>> openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > >> > >> __________________________________________________________________________ > >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >> Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________________________________ > >> OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > >> Unsubscribe: > >> openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) > > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe > > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __________________________________________________________________________ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev