On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 22:32 +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 14.27 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto: > > On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 18:30 +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > > > Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 09.14 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto: > > > > > > > Gentleman, > > > > I would like to point out that the teXlive\Tex\LaTex debate seems to be > > > > concerned with a relatively small group(in a world domination approach > > > > of distribution, which openSUSE needs) of university\scientific users. > > > > > > I really think it's important to keep existing users before thinking to > > > the world domination, which is, however, far if it will ever happen. > > > > > > > So you would rather hinder spreading openSUSE than to separate packages > > onto alternative sources? > > [You wrote to me off-list probably by mistake, so I leave the full > quotations.] > > Don't get me wrong. I would like openSUSE to be more adopted. But we can > do that without hitting the existing users, especially if they're > key-users like the university ones. > > > > Excluding packages like LaTeX from media means excluding from the user > > > base an important group of users: students, teachers, university labs. > > > They won't accept to install LaTeX on each machine separately. You've to > > > keep in mind that in many universities PC's are directly maintained by > > > users and not by admins. > > > > These users don't already install MSOffice from a separate media when > > they need it? Separating the OS installation media from the products is > > a well established format. Ubuntu, is catching on quite well and they > > use installation repositories for all but the OS. > > Having to install stuff from separate media is one of the biggest > complaints of users, and one of the most boring activities Windows users > have to do.
Most of the people I introduce to openSUSE complain about how long it takes to install and can't believe it takes an entire DVD just to get Linux running. Point is, you can't please everyone! > > Ubuntu is including repository directly in the distribution I'm betting openSUSE will do this soon as well. > and it's > shipping CD's to those without a fast connection. Plus, Ubuntu targets > home users mainly, and, for what I know, it's not well established into > research centres where Red Hat based distributions are well established > (think to CentOS, Scientific Linux, ...). > > > > Plus, universities and research centres are where students (future > > > users) get in contact with Linux. Do you think they will choose a > > > distribution which requires additional media to use LaTeX (many teachers > > > and scientific papers requires it) or a distribution which allows to > > > install it comfortably at the installation time? > > > > If they are university level users than they are smart enough to > > decipher the location of an additional product media when downloading > > openSUSE and choose to download the LaTex product media as well, or do > > you assume they are to lazy to download an extra disk? In which case how > > do they get the non-oss media? > > You still don't get the point. There won't be any additional LaTeX > media. The proposal is to leave LaTeX only on the FTP repository. > There would be if community members made one instead of demanding the devs to carry it on their backs. > The non-OSS software is on the DVD. You should know that. Only on the retail DVD, not the download DVD. any research center or University worth it's salt has a WW3 pipe to the internet and the really good ones are part of our mirror service. > > > It's a simple economics problem, how do you get the extra software to > > the people that want it without it costing you extra money every time > > someone who doesn't want it downloads. You provide multiple media and > > installation sources in a well defined library. Just because it's free > > software doesn't mean openSUSE should pay all the bills of your getting > > it! > > This is the Windows way of thinking. no, this is an intelligent, economically sensible way of thinking > And I'm not asking to OpenSUSE to > pay any additional bill. I'm saying they should include it on the usual > DVD, making the DVD costs more than making a CD, as well as the bandwidth to download it. > maybe removing really unnecessary applications like games, > duplicates and such. Someone pointed out free-civ is installed by > default, I don't consider it a key application. > > > > > This program group seems to take enough space to be on it's own CD\DVD. > > > > As openSUSE moves towards the idea that the base install should meet the > > > > needs of a larger group, i.e Home Users, some of the current groups are > > > > going to have to accept that there favorite program will need to be on > > > > an "Add-On" product CD\DVD. > > > > > > We are not talking of creating an additional DVD or CD. We are talking > > > about leaving LaTeX only on FTP. > > > > > > > see above remark containing Ubuntu reference. > > Yes. I don't want OpenSUSE to be as Ubuntu. If so, I'd use it and stop > using OpenSUSE, don't you think? > > > > > In terms of > > > > sharing them, this will increase the ease in which you distribute the > > > > programs to your students \ co-workers by alleviating the requirement > > > > that you have to distribute and entire distro to your students \ > > > > co-workers. Your schools \ departments could simply start saying > > > > openSUSE X.x or SLED X.x are necessary to take part in course X \ work > > > > in department X, much like they do now for other topics, and you then > > > > hand out the Tex\TeXlive DVD. > > > > > > Right. I see the freedom in forcing someone to use OpenSUSE or SLED > > > because someone else decided. The original idea was to use Linux (what > > > distribution I like) and I will find the software I need because it > > > works on all distributions. It's one of the principles which brought > > > Linux to be what it is today. > > > > Now your just pissing in the wind! Schools\Universities force > > homogenization on students all the time. Some Schools even force you to > > buy your laptop from a list of accepted versions or even from the school > > bookstore. > > Homogenisation is sometime necessary, if you work with others. But > probably you live in a quite illiberal place, because I don't know of > universities which force student to buy notebooks from a list. They > usually have some requirement about software, usually related to > security, which is hard to define strict. > > > You say it yourself "and I will find the software I need > > because it works on all distributions", let them find it on > > software.opensuse.org nicely package specifically for the version they > > are on and easily downloaded\mirrored to the schools local > > repository...and they all have one! > > I said in the distribution, not somewhere in an unknown repository. Put it in the Education Desktop repository and publicize it more..;) > > > > > We as community members are responsible to the distribution and it's > > > > well being,(that old "the good of many" thing) and in order for openSUSE > > > > to move forward it must make life easier for a much bigger group, as the > > > > 1-cd install idea does. > > > > > > Right. Let the home users use the 1 CD install. And put what UNIX and > > > Linux users want and expect to be part of the distribution on the DVD. > > > > No one needs to download a 4 gig DVD just for a few programs and its > > download should eventually be discontinued (Bandwidth costs openSUSE > > too!)and those buying the retail version should get 3 disks; > > 1: OS base install (CD-1 of choice) > > 2: additional products (everything on the current OSS DVD minus the OS) > > 3: non-oss > > Discontinue the DVD means again loosing users. It's probably the > preferred media of installation and the fastest, more reliable one. Not if the base CD, repositories and categories are established and published correctly. > Plus > it's the one suggested by Novell developers to do reliable version > upgrades. Another thing you should know. Only because they have to support the best option available today. > > > if a particular group wants something like the "Tex" it can be > > constructed into an "Add-on" ISO very easily, maybe even with an on-line > > tool to do so, since there is already a YaST module under construction > > for this. It could even start a new business line for openSUSE like > > those adverts you see for buying copies of Linux distro's, only openSUSE > > could also offer any software in the build-service and any arch packed > > onto an ISO and mailed for $X.00 > > You think too much to business ;-) > This adds complexity to the already complex openSUSE. This is another > very frequent complaint we hear about openSUSE. It's not the case to > make things worse. The complexity complaints your referring to are due to the clutter and confusion caused by supporting 4g of software most users don't even know what it is. > > > > To win, Linux has to be accessible to everyone (another basic > > > principle), also those without a fast connection, and they're a lot, for > > > various reasons. That's why it's important to have at least one > > > "complete" set of media. > > > > In that case, a library of downloadable\shipable sub-product RPM's\ISO's > > makes even more sense, i.e. I can afford an hour of downloads this month > > and I want the new openSUSE and the scientific tools group, I get > > CD1-gnome in 15 minutes and the scientific tools in another 20, Now I > > have 25 minutes to get a new game or two ;) vs I got the core dvd in 70 > > minutes hope I can scrape up the extra cash somehow. > > I shouldn't take from openSUSE or my co-workers\family any unnecessary > > bandwidth. > > Considering the download times you reported, you're assuming your zone > is reached by a fast connection. That's not always the case. You should > also consider less rich countries, where Linux has a huge potential user > base and where Linux is spreading probably more rapidly than in our > world. Then they must be buying the retail package aka boxed set, and it could easily include Add-on Cd's packaged according to intended use i.e. openSUSE for Schools, openSUSE for Architects , openSUSE thin client server, etc... > > To conclude, using aka_druid's words, "removing tex utils from the dvd > will annoy academic users, and that's bad, period". :-) If we don't begin to separate software into categories with there own sources\media, we will soon have to ship a 500g HD just to get it all on the same disk. Read my signature, I am an Education user and I am very aware of what my College\University peers are doing. Can many others here say the same? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
