> -----Original Message-----
> From: boxed [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 7:30 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Simplicity of WW2 - Practical ideas
>
>
> Mike Cannon-Brookes wrote:
>
> >You can already test actions to setup xwork.xml - just
> instantiate the
> >object, call your setter methods and run!
> >
> >
> Are you trying to scare users away now? I was talking WW2,
> not XW, so a
> web-based interface where you can get immediate feedback in the
> environment you're gonna use seems reasonable. Writing even
> more code is
> hardly user friendly.
I don't think it's wrong to push for test-driven development, but point taken. See
below...
>
> >People doing J2EE understand XML, they have to. All descriptors are
> >XML. Xwork.xml is not _that_ complex for a hello world
> example, most of
> >the elements are optional.
> >
> >
> I think you overestimate "people doing j2ee". Maybe you need
> to come and
> spend a day or two in #java and listen to the questions
> people who are
> trying to understand WW (1 and 2) are asking. Many are new to java,
> people just don't learn programming the logical way by
> working upwards,
> they start in the middle and work outwards. Sure, it's not "_that_"
> complex for a hello world app. It is however an order of
> magnitude more
> complex than it was in WW1 and _already that level_ confused a lot of
> newbies. If we want WW2 to be used and to be able to compete with
> things like Struts, you can't have this kind of elitist thinking.
>
> If you have a competent person who knows XML and all that,
> the odds are
> he's already used to Struts and we do NOT want to make him give up on
> his evaluation of WW2 because it's a big hassle. We want to give the
> view (illusion if you will) that it's easier than Struts, and
> not just a
> little easier, a _lot_ easier. No one will change if they don't see
> their time invested will be worth it down the line.
So what are they going to use? Struts has MORE config files.
>
> >However, there _is_ a problem with WW2 at the moment that if
> a view is
> >not found, no debug page is shown. I think it should be ("action
> >returned "input" but not "input" view found).
> >
> >
> So you agree with the full debug output? Fine, I still hold
> to my view
> that if we give the illusion of ease of use, people will
> believe it is
> easy to use. Call me crazy, but I think people believe what they see.
How about if we create a default view in Velocity and bundle it in the jar file? We
could have a default.vm that display some basic information (shows all of the errors
and shows the class name and all of the properties of the action, etc.). We could map
this velocity file as the default result for error, input, and success so it would be
used if any of the views are not defined. That would make it super-easy to get a web
display of your action without having to build a web page or anything. Thoughts?
>
> I'd also like some arguments against my ideas other than "it's not so
> complex" and "I don't think so". You began the email with "I have to
> say that this is a _bad_ idea." and then proceeded to give zero
> technical arguments against the idea. I am fully willing to throw my
> idea in the garbage bin, given actual problems with it. You have not
> shown any.
How about because giving too many options leads to confusion and having to document
all of them and explain defaults, etc. This was one of the big problems with WW1,
because everything had this complex defaulting scheme, so it's hard to know what
you're actually getting out.
>
> Anders Hovmöller
>
>
>
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