RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

Casey Dyke Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:33:13 -0700

Title: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

can't resist this, although i may regret it ... but ...

i have seen exactly what samir describes here, with similar outcomes for those involved.

however, i worked at an overseas subsidiary of what became one of the biggest dot com failures. i had a lot of dealings w/the head office. i saw things from the "inside". they were not stuffed full of overseas pretenders. they were stuffed full of locally based pretenders. writing crap code and making crap decisions and generally acting like a boofhead is a trait people in many countries suffer from.

</steps back, waaaaay back, and goes surfing>

-----Original Message-----
From: SARKAR, Samir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 1:09 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
Subject: RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

Well, you know something on this....I am not saying that all Indians are the
best in their
business either. During the hey-days of dotcom companies and IT when anybody
who just
could compile a simple program or even less were hired out, I have seen guys
emigrating
from India to the US purely based on a telephone interview alone and quite a
few of them
without much skills. I have known somebody who went to the US without any
skills as a
PL/SQL programmer (his telephone interview was given by a friend of his who
knew the
subject) assuming that he would 'manage' if the company cross-trained him
which the
company didnt mind doing really. But he was asked to write a simple 'select'
statement
to select all account holders from a table and this guy knowing nothing
about SQL, called
up his friend who told him on the phone to do a 'select * from <whatever>'.
This guy started
typing :

select star from <whatever>;

The project manager who was right behind him watching fired him the same
day.

The point I am making is, during the boom times experienced by the IT
industry a couple
of years back and more, a large number of Indian software 'professionals'
were hired out by American
companies and along with the qualified ones, quite a bit of trash landed up
there as well
which many of you must have had the 'mis'fortune to work with. They are the
ones who are
responsible for the bad name earned by cheap Indian labour as well.

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA
SchlumbergerSema
Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 14 August 2003 22:45
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Samir,
Your E-mail just brought up in my point of view one of the problems with
global trade ( generally I am not against it btw ): since the living cost
here is so much higher in the US, it is unfair and impossible for people in
the US to compete against people living in India. We are not standing on
even ground. Also from what I read nobody made assumptions about
competancies of Indian programmers based on their price, its based on
personal experience.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

One thing which most of the people have assumed on this thread
is that since the labour is cheap, it is necessarily inefficient and
incompetent.
The reason the labour comes cheap in India is cos living costs r very cheap
too.
The best paid executives in India get paid around 100,000 Indian Rupees a
month
which would be just a little less than $2500. With that kind of money,
anybody
in India would live like a king....fancy cars, house servants, fancy
apartments et al.
And quite a few highly qualified executives are paid less than the amount I
mentioned.

This is the reason companies are now going in for outsourcing as investment
costs
are pretty lower in all respects in India.....right from setting up of the
infrastructure.

Samir

Samir Sarkar
Oracle DBA
SchlumbergerSema
Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6028
EPABX : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6418 Ext. 76028
Fax : +44 (0) 115 - 957 6018

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 14 August 2003 18:29
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Reminds me of when IBM decided to keep the Aptiva line, built in Mexico, and
killed the Ambra line of PCs, built in Canada... My mother owned an Aptiva,
I owned an Ambra -- In my opinion the Aptivas had many more problems than
the Ambras did.

In the end IBM decided to kill the Ambra line because (I suppose) on the
budget sheets it looked like the right thing to do. In the short run at
least. Perhaps someone got a promotion out of that decision.

Now Dell seems to be doing OK...

Patrice.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Tim,

I regret to have to agree with you. More of the IT jobs are & will
be moving to overseas locations until those locations prove that they cannot
support US operations for one reason or other. I believe it is just an
effort by unintelligent CEO, CIO, and CFO's to save a buck today. What
we'll end up with is a number of large companies that are trying to sell
products to a lot of unemployed middle class people who won't open their
wallets. What's the old saying, penny wise pound foolish? As in save a
penny here drop a dollar there.

Dick Goulet
Senior Oracle DBA
Oracle Certified 8i DBA

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L

Of course the shipment of "development work" out of the US affects DBAs!
Support of production systems is only one part of the job, and the
outsourcing of application development to another physical location then
necessarily outsources the systems/database administration with it. How
many huge application development projects do you see in the US these days?

There is no "cherry picking". The IT industry in the US is moving overseas,
it is a trend, and it will move much faster than the manufacturing sector
did, for obvious reasons. There is lighter equipment to move.

It is difficult to tell that the water level in the lake is dropping when
you are treading water. Until your feet touch bottom...

on 8/14/03 8:24 AM, DENNIS WILLIAMS at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Ken - Since you've recently changed jobs, your upbeat attitude is
> encouraging. I think you've made a good point that jobs aren't always
> advertised. Another point is that when there are more jobs than available
> candidates, companies have to advertise strongly to fill their positions.
> When there are more candidates than available jobs, companies often find
> that people are seeking out the opening before they post it.
>
> Patrice - Look at what happened over the previous years. In 1999
> corporations spent wildly on I.T. (naturally when the catastrophe didn't
> occur because of the tireless efforts of I.T. people, the senior
executives
> felt the money was wasted). Then when spending would have naturally
> declined, the dot-com madness stuck and things went wild. I think we are
> just about to come out of the natural down cycle due to the extravagant
> dot-com spending. But now I keep seeing articles about how much
development
> work is being sent overseas. Has anyone seen that affect Oracle DBA work
> yet?
>
> Dennis Williams
> DBA
> Lifetouch, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:14 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L
>
>
> I don't think it has as much to do with no available positions (although
> that is part of the answer) as most medium to large companies don't use
> newspaper ads anymore. They are using the internet (especially for
> technical jobs) and are signed up with Monster, BrassRing, etc. to do
their
> recruiting for them from their own company web sites. I've seen this
> definite shift here in the Minneapolis / St. Paul, MN area over the past
> couple of years. Most of these companies also provide e-mail service that
> sends you an email when a job is posted that meets your specs. So, why
> waste your time on newspaper ads that only appear every Sunday?
>
> My $0.02 worth,
>
> Ken Janusz, CPIM
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> To: "Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:34 AM
>
>
>> I've been keeping an eye on the Boston Globe's Oracle DBA job postings,
> two
>> years ago it wasn't uncommon to see eight or more per week, now I tend to
>> see one or two, or none.
>>
>> For a while they also announced big IT job fairs, I don't know if they
> still
>> do that or how successful they now are.
>>
>> The market has really shrunk in two years!
>>
>> There can't be a huge glut of DBAs out there looking for work... It must
> be
>> a reduction in demand because companies are not making big infrastructure
>> changes anymore.
>>
>> Patrice.
>> --
>> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net
>> --
>> Author: Boivin, Patrice J
>>   INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
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RE: OT -- Boston Globe job listings

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