On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote:
> Joseph,
>
> >> You see, Joseph, it's this kind of humor that makes people think of waking
> >> up next to their favorite racehorse's head.
> >Not sure what your point is, here, pardner. After all, I was saying this
> My point is that some slow people, like me, can't always tell right away
> when you are kidding (remember "A Swedish Idea"). Mafia->Godfather
> I->horsehead in movie director's bed. Get it?
But I wasn't kidding... Anyway, enough of that.
> >I hope so! They deserve them. At any rate, I have a little more
> >information about the deal now than I did; your dire warnings are, IMHO,
> >unfounded. Sure, there are some nasty implications for those poor souls
> >still waiting for Godot^WIronflare to provide Oracle-level support for
> >Orion, but even those are merely implications and not a fomral reality
> >yet.
> Okay. Somehow, I don't think Karl is going to ever teach me the secret
> Ironflare handshake.
Me either. Although I'm betting it involves lutefisk somehow. Those silly
Finns!
> >> course, Adrian (creator of the VirtualAdrian tools) is a god and I'm just a
> >> troll (as someone recently pointed out), but even trolls get lucky now and
> >> then.
> >Are you a BLIND troll, that's the real question.
> >[snip, snippety snip snip snip!]
> BLIND and DUMB. You're slipping, not snipping, Joseph.
Nah, I'm trying to have fun. That's an unfair critique of a phrase-based
pun, you might say, and you're offending me greatly! I'm going to add you
to my kill-file, report you to the FBI (in addition to the FBI, the CIA,
and the NSA, and the local police), and send you a bottle of glue, because
I can't afford a horse and that's the closest I can get.
> >> My point is that the dance between Orion and Oracle could be just as
> >> complex.
> >Sure, could be. But isn't. :) I'm not trying to hold some special knowldge
> >over your head, and it's quite possible that what I know is public
> >knowledge, but until I confirm that, I ain't saying.
> Secret handshake and secret decoder ring...
Well, okay - maybe I have a slight advantage because I talk to them online
every so often, and I'm the guy who said "Hey, I've got a server, orion
needs support, they ain't doing it, so I will." Maybe that gets me a
little more info every now and then, especially when I ask directly. In
addition, I eat a LOT of Captain Crunch, and they have those neatoriffic
toys...
> >Doubt THAT - the whole reason they licensed Orion is because they found
> >that they were getting the real tough problems and their lousy
> >infrastructure wasn't set up for it. Not a matter of THEIR SKILL, mind
> >you, but of the original thought that went into their misbegotten app
> >server crap.
> Maybe so. What about Karl's pledge 6 months ago that "hiring the right
> people" was Ironflare's first order of business? They've hired one
> recently, or so I've heard.
And I don't know who they hired, but I've heard the same thing. OTOH,
maybe their hiring critieria is very strict - which I can understand. I'm
really more or less on your side on this particular issue, but more on
this later...
> I have confidence; however, most of my major (Fortune 500) clients have not
> shown confidence in products where the only two people in the world who
> understand the guts of it live 8,000 miles away and might get hit by a bolt
> of lightening at the same time. Something like, "Oops, we regret to inform
> you that we cannot support your $30M startup because the only two people
> who can answer that question are unavailable."
Ah ha! And this is where Oracle turns out to be a HUGE win for us (and
Ironflare). Now, you don't have to rely on an inconsistent mailing list
and two (maybe three) developers. Now you can say, "Hey, got $40K? Buy
Oracle, and you'll be off and running with a full support network." While
it's possible OC4J could fork from Orion's codebase, the chances of a
severe fork are very slim. (Yes, the chances are there, from what I
understand.) Slim chances, of course, mean that it will definitely happen,
and the sky will fall, and I *will* win a game of Civ:CTP
before... um... the day ends.
> You seem to have inside knowledge about this. Does Oracle (or anyone
> besides Karl and Magnus) have a copy of the Orion Server source code?
I'll leave that answer to the principals involved. I don't know WHAT they
have, exactly.
> >> I would like to see Oracle at least attempt to hire some of the people
> >> around the world who contributed their valuable time to debugging Orion
> >> free of charge. NOT ME. I'm not looking for a job with Orionacle.
> >Me either... but I'm not sure if this is your actual gripe. If it is, hey,
> >um, wow... you're over-reacting by a lot, IMHO.
> It's a big part of my gripe. There's some sort of idea that there was/is a
> "quid pro quo" between free use of Orion and free testing/debugging by the
> user community. I don't agree with that, but let's say there is. Well,
> the game has now changed, that is, big bucks from Oracle.
Let's play pretend, shall we? (This is called a "hypothetical
syringe^Wsituation.") Oracle licenses Orion; deploys it. Oracle customer
Sam-I-Am.com (selling green eggs and ham, no doubt) finds a *gasp*
bug. They then report it to Oracle, who dismisses the bug entirely. Then,
www.whoville.gov discovers a different bug, and reports it too. Oracle
pays attention, notes the bug and a fix, sends it to whoville.gov...
What happens for us? There are a few possibilities.
1) Oracle and Ironflare have a slightly (or mostly) symbiotic relationship
with respect to Orion, and Oracle sends the patch/fix/note to Ironflare.
2) Oracle ignores Ironflare and branches OC4J permanently from the parent
codebase.
3) Oracle sends a horse's head to Magnus' bed.
Which one do you think is in Oracle's best interest? I say #3, and then
#1, in order. If it is, indeed, either of those, we all win. Oh no. Perish
the thought.
> All righty then, so let's spread the wealth. I'm guessing there are some
> contributors who don't have six-figure, five-figure or even four-figure
> incomes. I'm no saint, but I would like to see them do more than send out
> an email saying, "Thanks for making us rich. Have a nice life..." Again,
> not for me. I'm sure they'll never answer my emails. Oh wait, that's
> already happened.
*shrug* If you ask me, the value they've added to my working capabilities
has been well worth it. I think they've done enough.
> How about Orionacle offering a job for one of the contributors to write a
> reliable list server based on Orion? I mean a paying job, this time.
I want them to offer me a job installing already-proven list software that
doesn't involve Orion at all. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://adjacency.org/ IT Consultant
