Masud I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls." However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am not an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died).
I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that the degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent, and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really think there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either. So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts. Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20845 Phone 301-365-2093 Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Masud Sheikh Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: Turtles (short) HO wrote: "Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that is pretty much where I found myself." I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g. the financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other. Let me stop here, and invite others to join in My best wishes Masud * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
