Alan wrote" If the people involved in the system are not organizing it, then who is? If the response is "the boss", then the boss is part of the system and so the system is still self-organizing. And, in any case, each member (at leasteach living member) of the system is making ongoing choices about how they will organize themselves in response to the rest of the system.
Very good point, Alan. And when The Boss actually believe his/her Press, that is one Boss in deep trouble. The situation is no less dire with the people (employees), but quite understandable. After all if everybody was inherently involved in the process, everybody would be responsible. And then who would you blame? Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20845 Phone 301-365-2093 Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Klein Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:31 AM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: Turtles (short) If the people involved in the system are not organizing it, then who is? If the response is "the boss", then the boss is part of the system and so the system is still self-organizing. And, in any case, each member (at least each living member) of the system is making ongoing choices about how they will organize themselves in response to the rest of the system. Physical objects are part of the scenery. Sure they form limitations on the choices we make, but half of an infinite range of choices is still an infinite range of choices! ~Alan Klein -----Original Message----- From: Artur Silva 1. You refer often to Kaufman's conditions for self-organization. Clearly those conditions are NOT current and they occur only in special situations. So it seems to me that there is a contradiction between your references to those conditions and your persistent affirmations that "there is not such thing as a non-self-organizing-systems". Can you clarify your thoughts about this please? 2. I agree with Masud that the statement is true for "living systems". So when we consider the humans as part of an ecosystem we can see them as a "living systems". But human organizations are not only "living material". Masud gave an example with the financial system, but there are others. An organization is a mix of living people with objects, rules, procedures, hierarchies, etc that are not "living" in the biological sense. Those rules and procedures inhibit, in my opinion, their being "living systems". That's is precisely the reason why we talk about opening the space - the fact that quite often in organizations and even in communities the space is pretty closed. Any comments? * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
