Masud -- It would seem that cells have the same problem. If the cell membrane is totally porous (open) the cell will die. If it is totally closed, the cell will die. Either way, the cell will die. And truthfully, no matter what -- the cell will die. So maybe it is a dance between openness and closed-ness. And when you stop dancing, it is all over. In the interim, the real question (for me) is how do you dance with elegance?
Harrison Harrison Owen 7808 River Falls Drive Potomac, Maryland 20845 Phone 301-365-2093 Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Masud Sheikh Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:18 AM To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu Subject: Re: Turtles (short) Thank you for your response Harrison, Something similar (and different) was going through my mind, which was this: When living systems interact with non-living (dead) systems, and if the "dead" systems start dominanting living system/s, the larger system starts to die. There is something related that is important: For any system (once formed) to survive, it has to manage the degree of change it accepts from outside the current boundaries of the system. So, for instance the debate started recently by Huntington's new article about the danger about U.S.A. losing its identity with increase in its Spanish speaking population - to which debate, of course there are is more than one side Masud Sheikh Harrison Owen wrote: >Masud > >I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I >might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the >possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true >that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or >some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or >possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls." >However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the >environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and >regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of >self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the >above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am not >an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work >for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the >way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict >the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died). > >I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly >man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that the >degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent, >and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And >some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really think >there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either. > >So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a >non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees >of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive >process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it >stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts. > >Harrison > >Harrison Owen >7808 River Falls Drive >Potomac, Maryland 20845 >Phone 301-365-2093 > >Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com >Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org >Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm >osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Masud >Sheikh >Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM >To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu >Subject: Re: Turtles (short) > >HO wrote: >"Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing >system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the >organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that >is pretty much where I found myself." > >I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing >system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For >instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that >the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather >than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g. the >financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and >non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other. > >Let me stop here, and invite others to join in > >My best wishes >Masud > >* >* >========================================================== >osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu >------------------------------ >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, >view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > >To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: >http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > >* >* >========================================================== >osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu >------------------------------ >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, >view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist