----- Original Message ----- From: "Harrison Owen" <hho...@comcast.net> To: <osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Turtles (short)
> Masud > > I see where you are going, but would suggest that the real issue is what I > might call "degrees of freedom" -- or maybe better the "size" of the > possibility space. With financial systems, for example, it is quite true > that the system, as originally put in place, was designed by someone -- or > some several ones. The intent is always to limit the degrees of freedom or > possibility space. This is known as having "tight financial controls." > However, once the system in place and begins to interact with all the > environmental factors known as users, auditors, government rules and > regulations, rise and fall of the currency markets etc. -- the process of > self-organization begins again as the total system (including all of the > above -- users -- and much more)interact and "search for fitness." I am not > an accountant, but as a user of some fairly large systems (I used to work > for the US federal government), I have never seen a system that worked the > way it was designed, and in fact if attempts were made to totally restrict > the degrees of freedom, the system typically shut down (died). > > I believe we can see the same sort of thing operative in other, supposedly > man-made, "closed systems." For instance software. You might think that the > degrees of freedom in a piece of software would be small to non-existent, > and yet there is always a shakedown period as the system "stabilizes." And > some (most) of them never fully hit stasis. By the way, I don't really think > there is any such thing as a "CLOSED SYSTEM" either. > > So from where I sit, it is still true that there is no such thing as a > non-self-organizing system. However there are large differences in degrees > of freedom (possibility space). With a small space, the ongoing adaptive > process may appear miniscule, but it is still taking place. And when it > stops, the system is dead -- just like the organic counterparts. > > Harrison > > Harrison Owen > 7808 River Falls Drive > Potomac, Maryland 20845 > Phone 301-365-2093 > > Open Space Training www.openspaceworld.com > Open Space Institute www.openspaceworld.org > Personal website http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hhowen/index.htm > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives Visit: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OSLIST [mailto:osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu] On Behalf Of Masud > Sheikh > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:50 AM > To: osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > Subject: Re: Turtles (short) > > HO wrote: > "Or put rather bluntly - there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing > system. There are only some mildly deluded folks who think they did the > organizing. Outrageous for sure, and possibly a break with reality, but that > is pretty much where I found myself." > > I believe the statement "there is no such thing as a non-self-organizing > system" is true for living systems, but not for non-living systems. For > instance, in any "organization" there are systems of people, who find that > the best team-building may be done around the coffee machine or bar, rather > than in a classroom, teaching "teamwork". There are other systems (e.g. the > financial reporting system) that are non-living. Both the living and > non-living systems interact with - and impact - each other. > > Let me stop here, and invite others to join in > > My best wishes > Masud > > * > * > ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > > * > * > ========================================================== > osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: > http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist > * * ========================================================== osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of osl...@listserv.boisestate.edu: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html To learn about OpenSpaceEmailLists and OSLIST FAQs: http://www.openspaceworld.org/oslist
