Jerry:
"Because I want to " is an ok answer.
I was just wondering if u were using your house as a prototype or proof of
concept somewhere in the real world.
What the heck. I have a 1200 sq ft aquaponic greenhouse that is fully automated
with electro mechanical relays, solenoids, liquid level sensors, pumps, fans,
pneumatic cylinders that open and shut vents, misters, thermostats, humidity
sensors, temperature sensors, all monitored and controlled by a raspberry pi
that communicates with the one wire protocol.
My wife thinks I'm crazy.
My wife would tell the other occupants of your house
"I feel your pain!"
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 24, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Jerry Scharf <sch...@lagunawayconsulting.com>
> wrote:
>
> Arley,
>
> This is approaching flame bait, but I will answer it since it was sent
> to the list. I will handle all other comments off this list. I really
> didn't want to coopt the list to discussing this.
>
> If you don't care about maximizing comfort or efficiency, the humble
> thermostat is fine. If you have one forced air furnace with or without a
> single A/C unit, it will do what it can to keep the house heated and
> cooled. If you want to deal with real world issues that make this kind
> of system less than ideal, you suddenly need something far smarter and
> more coordinated.
>
> As for the thermostat being the ideal UI, please explain why I always
> walked into rooms (houses, hotel rooms, ...) that were either boiling or
> freezing. The reason was that someone came in, was really uncomfortable
> and so they turned the thermostat way up or way down. The thinking that
> it will make them comfortable more quickly, which is about 90% false. Of
> course they forget they did this and a while later people are cooked or
> frozen.
>
> A more comfortable approach is to have a new final target, overshoot the
> target by a moderate amount (I use 30% as an empirical rule of thumb) of
> the differential to reach the 63% thermal mass temperature (depends on
> heat flow and thermal mass) to heat/cool the room mass more quickly,
> then return to the target.
>
> I spent quite a bit of time and money trying to make my house very
> comfortable and efficient. The control system is a key part of making it
> work. The fact that you don't care about (or seem to even notice) the
> less than ideal actions of thermostats doesn't make it something others
> should not pursue.
>
> People who walk into my house instantly feel the difference from how a
> normal house feels. That's not an accident and it's not trivial to do.
>
> jerry
>
>> On 02/24/2016 07:02 AM, Arley Carter wrote:
>> Jerry:
>> Forgive me if you consider these stupid questions. Why is your house so
>> complex?
>> How does this development project add value to your house?
>>
>> The humble thermostat does the job for me. It is cheap and has never
>> failed me and has never
>> needed a sys admin or a highly skilled system architect to solve a fault
>> tolerance or deadlock/ fail open/fail close problem.
>> It can used properly and understood by a 6 year old.
>> If I need more zones, I call the hvac guy and he installs more zones
>> with more humble thermostats that are cheap and controlled by simple
>> electrical mechanical DC devices that don't need a college degree to
>> understand and have a failure rate of .001 %
>> If my other family members are realllllly unhappy, I can install some
>> through the wall systems made by Hitachi and others that will provide
>> precise control in each room ( or portions thereof) and can be operated
>> by a 6 year old.
>>
>> So.... Why is your house so complex? Please explain in a few words what
>> the value is for this development project over what we already have?
>> Arley
>>
>>> On 23/02/16 22:05, Jerry Scharf wrote:
>>> I'll make one public comment on this.
>>>
>>> OpenHAB is the exact opposite of what I am thinking of. I would describe
>>> OpenHAB as "You will write in Java, you will use our class structure,
>>> you will limit yourself to the interactions that we think are important
>>> and you will like it. We do." You can certainly build something this way
>>> and get to the feature adding stage sooner, but you also create all
>>> sorts of walls to run into. I have too many dents on my head from trying
>>> to get these kinds of systems to dance anything other than the tune they
>>> came with.
>>>
>>> My house is way to complex for this kind of model, at both the
>>> abstraction and interaction level. My house is designed to allow a
>>> control system to run the system in as close to steady state as
>>> possible, with variable source and distribution units. So "turn it on"
>>> is a less common action than increase this flow or output to 42%.
>>>
>>> I also have independent heating and cooling systems with independent and
>>> overlapping zoning. Then again, zone is something a system implementer
>>> thinks about, occupants really don't know or want to know about these
>>> things. I'm here and I'm too hot is their level.
>>>
>>> Now imagine trying to predict the solar heating rate from weather
>>> reports/measurements and preheat/precool areas to at least reduce
>>> massive errors. With radiant heat, these decisions are made in time
>>> scale of fractions of an hour in advance.
>>>
>>> The interactions need to be defined by the components in the particular
>>> system and the service agreements between messaging agents that present
>>> those components. My goal is to be able to have agents that implement
>>> control algorithms / architectures and allow those to interact with real
>>> world systems.
>>>
>>> jerry
>>>
>>>> On 02/23/2016 11:16 AM, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
>>>> Arley Carter <arcart...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Have you looked at the work done by the OPC Consortium?
>>>> Not yet.
>>>>
>>>> [three hours later] O … K … Skip ahead if you don't want to read me
>>>> ranting.
>>>>
>>>> If you want something that's *way* overspecified (I do not want to
>>>> implement a
>>>> structured version of SQL queries – among other interesting things – nor
>>>> do I
>>>> see any need to do so) and impossible to implement without (a) access to
>>>> the
>>>> reference implementation and its test cases and (b) at least a man year for
>>>> the basics (the Java server example is 430 lines -- more than 70(!) import
>>>> statements, way too few comments, and a heap of empty handlers most people
>>>> would find to be somewhat essential), be my guest.
>>>>
>>>> This eerily reminds me of the X.400 train wreck of the 1980s.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, this is the OWFS list. I can guarantee that nobody in their
>>>> right
>>>> mind would ever connect an 1820 temperature sensor to such a system.
>>>>
>>>>> They are rather
>>>>> far down the track in the direction you are headed.
>>>> They also want $3000 for access to their C source code. Redistribution is
>>>> not
>>>> permitted, sorry, so any open source implementation will have to be done
>>>> from
>>>> scratch.
>>>>
>>>>> Why replow fields and reinvent wheels?
>>>> Look at how much FHEM or OpenHAB can do. Ultimately I would like to build
>>>> [the
>>>> foundation of] something that's as capable, but somewhat more reliable (no
>>>> single point of failure) and accessible ("if X, do Y" should be three
>>>> lines of
>>>> debuggable Python/Perl/whatever, or three Node:Red clicks).
>>>>
>>>> In any case I am no re-inventing any wheels. The wheels are out there, I
>>>> can
>>>> learn how they're built, and decide to use them in a vehicle that is
>>>> easier to
>>>> driver than what's already out there and that'll stay on track if one of
>>>> the
>>>> wheels gets loose.
>>>>
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