Hey Paul & rest of list,
Webforms was and is not bad. At it's conception it was revolutionary.
If ASP. NET Mvc had come out first, it would have had less of a "known
problem space" to learn from and prolly would not be as good as it is
now. In fact, webforms will continue to play a huge part.
Microsoft is acutely aware of the current barrier in terms of
learning curve to start developing on the MSFT stack. ASP.NET Mvc
doesn't really help as it requires a good base understanding of
frameworks and design principles. Webforms has a good leg up here with
rich controls to use, purist and technical usage aside. However it
still requires some framework knowledge.
At any rate, I love both. Webforms can and does work well. So does
Mvc. Both require more effort in different areas of the dev process.
A good example is the update panel. This control is brain dead easy
to use, automatically caters for non js scenario but can transfer
excessive amounts of data and get tricky in complex situations. Mvc
has no such productivity boosting out of the box control. However u
can do the same with more effort but also yield great flexibility in
the control of what goes down the wire and interaction with ur page.
So both can work with positives and negatives either way.
If webforms was a lot more extensible, would ur argument change? The
team is actively working towards this in future design considerations.
- Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On 19/03/2010, at 4:27 PM, Paul Stovell <p...@paulstovell.com> wrote:
>> As a completely unrelated note, one of the original crew on
WebForms sits down the hall from me - part of me wants to walk into
his office, grab him by the collar and say 'What were you
thinking?!!!'
Although I personally came to dislike the Web Forms model, I do
think it was innovative and an idea that deserved to be tried, and
I'm sure the people who worked on it were very smart. Even bad ideas
deserve a chance to see if they float - that's how we learn. I think
the only mistake was waiting this long to absorb the thinking of
other communities and to try something different.
Paul
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 3:05 PM, David Kean
<david.k...@microsoft.com> wrote:
By MVC here I'm clearly talking about ASP.NET MVC, not the pattern.
My point is that there is a huge barrier to entry to presentation
patterns such as MVC, MVP and MVVM - that if Microsoft was to adopt
these as the only way to develop Web and Client apps, we wouldn't be
as successful. There is a huge market of developers (mainly web
based) under what we call the 'breadth developer' that would be
excluded by these advanced concepts. Hell if you'd told me just over
9 years ago (years before I joined Microsoft) that I needed to learn
not only this new thing called .NET but also this pattern called
MVC, I would have turned and run. I would have probably stayed with
ASP (which what I was using at the time), before long moving to
something like similar like PHP. While now I can look back at my
naivety and realize now that there is a whole better way of
developing software, I really think that developers need to come to
that realization themselves, and not have it forced down their
throat by someone else.
(As a completely unrelated note, one of the original crew on
WebForms sits down the hall from me - part of me wants to walk into
his office, grab him by the collar and say 'What were you
thinking?!!!')
From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com]
on behalf of David Connors [da...@codify.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:12 PM
To: ozDotNet
Subject: Re: ASP.NET Web Forms vs MVC vs ...
On 19 March 2010 13:44, David Kean <david.k...@microsoft.com> wrote:
Truthfully, if MVC came before WebForms,
It did by a significant margin - but just not on .NET. That kind of
underscores the point that people are adopting it because it is new
(at least in their minds) - or perhaps ready made on .NET.
people wouldn't have flocked to the .NET platform like they did.
There was a reason that WebForms was so successful - it mimic'd the
existing drag and drop paradigm that VB6 developers were used to.
Or in otherwords, web forms was an exercise in marketing rather than
good engineering.
--
David Connors (da...@codify.com)
Software Engineer
Codify Pty Ltd - www.codify.com
Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189
363
V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors
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--
Paul Stovell
