Helmut, List, Yes, a good mathematical workshop is stocked with a wide variety of models and tools, which we can try out in various applications. In this regard we must be wary of a certain “ontologizing tendency” that tends to get us stuck on only one way of seeing things.
Regards, Jon http://inquiryintoinquiry.com > On Apr 4, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: > > Jon, List, > I agree. So I correct my writing: It is not an assumption of metaphysical > necessity, but just a model concept proposal. So, instead of asking "is that > so?" I better ask: "Is this a good model?" I think, that entropy is a > thermodynamic concept, at least has begun as such, heat exchange and so on. > The shimmering concept of "information" on the other hand- I think that it is > related to mind. Negative entropy or negentropy, when it occurs deliberately, > this deliberateness is a function of a mind, I think. So I think, that > negative entropy is not information in any case, but only when it is produced > with an aim- causa finalis, organisms, life, something with a mind or driven > by a mind. Well, a plant or a bacterium may not have much of a mind in > itself, but maybe in these cases the mind is located in the evolution. This > dislocation is possible, because a mind system does not use the real > dimensions x, y, z, but those of the phaneron.. So information is a phaneron > event, but it passes into real world by creating realworld domains in which > entropy decreases- of course by taking advantage of entropy increase > elsewhere, dissipation. Just a model. > Best, > Helmut > > Gesendet: Samstag, 04. April 2015 um 22:30 Uhr > Von: "Jon Awbrey" <jawb...@att.net> > An: "Helmut Raulien" <h.raul...@gmx.de> > Cc: "Peirce List" <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> > Betreff: [PEIRCE-L] Re: What is information and how is it related to > 'entropy' ? > Helmut, List, > Jon, List, > I agree. So I correct my writing: It is not an assumption of metaphysical > necessity, but just a model concept proposal. So, instead of asking "is that > so?" I better ask: "Is this a good model?" I think, that entropy is a > thermodynamic concept, at least has begun as such, heat exchange and so on. > The shimmering concept of "information" on the other hand- I think that it is > related to mind. Negative entropy or negentropy, when it occurs deliberately, > this deliberateness is a function of a mind, I think. So I think, that > negative entropy is not information in any case, but only when it is produced > with an aim- causa finalis, organisms, life, something with a mind or driven > by a mind. Well, a plant or a bacterium may not have much of a mind in > itself, but maybe in these cases the mind is located in the evolution. This > dislocation is possible, because a mind system does not use the real > dimensions x, y, z, but those of the phaneron. So information is a phaneron > event, but it passes into real world by creating realworld domains in which > entropy decreases- of course by taking advantage of entropy increase > elsewhere, dissipation. Just a model. > Best, > Helmut > > Gesendet: Samstag, 04. April 2015 um 22:30 Uhr > Von: "Jon Awbrey" <jawb...@att.net> > An: "Helmut Raulien" <h.raul...@gmx.de> > Cc: "Peirce List" <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> > Betreff: [PEIRCE-L] Re: What is information and how is it related to > 'entropy' ? > Helmut, List, > > Measures of dispersion, entropy, indeterminacy, uncertainty, whatever we > choose to call them are abstract mathematical thingies that can be defined in > a wide variety of settings. Whether any piece of mathematics has utility in a > given setting is one of those “proof of the pudding lies in the eating” > (POTPLITE) sorts of issues. In other words, useful is as useful does. > > It's always worth exploring potential analogies between applications but > there is no metaphysical necessity about a given measure having utility in a > given domain nor any guarantee that it's usefulness will transfer to another > domain. > > Regards, > > Jon > > http://inquiryintoinquiry.com > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 3:55 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: > > List, > not having read Shannon and Weaver, my concept of "entropy" now relates only > to the physical world, that is realworld systems with their system space > being the real dimensions x, y, z, resp. longitude, broadness and altitude. > And I think, that Jons definition is correct. The other kind of systems are > virtual or mind systems, whose system spaces are virtual. Just like when you > imagine something, this thing does not exist in real space, but in an > imagined space. I assume, Peirceans call this space the "Phaneron". Between > these two kinds of systems, I think, events -and only events- can pass to and > fro. These passing events are called "information", I think. So, information > is the one thing (better: Kind of event) that can pass the border between > body and mind, or between real world and phaneron. While entropy is something > only applied to the real world. Is that so? > Best, > Helmut > > Gesendet: Samstag, 04. April 2015 um 19:14 Uhr > Von: "Jerry LR Chandler" <jerry_lr_chand...@me.com> > An: "Peirce List" <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> > Cc: "Sungchul Ji" <s...@rci.rutgers.edu> > Betreff: Re: [PEIRCE-L] What is information and how is it related to > 'entropy' ? > List, Sung > > > On Apr 4, 2015, at 12:22 AM, Sungchul Ji wrote: > > (18) "The concept of entropy has had a long and interesting history, > beginning with its implicit introduction by Carnot to its explicit > formalization as a state function by Clausius to its statistical treatment by > Boltzmann and Gibbs to its application to communications theory by Shannon > (Shannon and Weaver 1949). The latter achievement has seemed to several > scientists a true generalization of the entropy conception, its freeing from > the particular disciplinary framework of thermodynamics for application to > probability distributions generally (Gatlin 1972; Yockey 1977). This mistaken > belief is a major impediment to productive communication between > thermodynamics and information theory, and we will examine it carefully." [3, > p. 177]. > In my initial response to your request, I mentioned books in the 1970's and > 1980's that had slipped from my memory. > > Your response identities two of them. > > The book by Gatlin was critical at the time. > The book by Yockey, a personal friend, was important at the time but was > seriously flawed and is seldom referenced. > > Another book from this period, by Wickens, was studied for many months and > remains worthy on mediation. > > Parenthetically, I would add that the meaning of the term "entropy", once > only used in a strict mathematical sense that was supported by physical > measurements, has been decimated beyond any meaningful utility. It is a > prime example of the loss of specific meaning of a scientific term when other > disciplines seek to extend it to their form/method of inquiry. > > Further comment. In view of the vast perplexity of the unity of nature, > predictive science demands clear and unambiguous usage of language and > mathematics in order to comprehend and validate empirical evidence. > Technologists recognize the economic importance of this. > > BTW, in view of the maladroit usage of relational terminology, I recently > coined the phrase, motivated by the perplex sortal logic of chemistry, and in > a minor way by CSP's trichotomony, "economy of relations." It will play a > substantial role in my book on Organic Mathematics. > > Cheers > > Jerry > ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or > "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to > peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but > to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of > the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm . > ----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or > "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to > peirce-L@list.iupui.edu . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but > to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of > the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
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